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[Pancaek]

All this talk of resurrection has got me pondering my choice of playing engineheart. I mean sure, I've got a fairly healthy endure stat already and a bit of body should something get through, so I probably won't die all that fast.

But I do have a tendency to somehow get into these situations where even a high leveled character with decent stats won't help me *coughnukedoorcough*, which worries me a bit.

[Radio Controlled]

All this talk of resurrection has got me pondering my choice of playing engineheart. I mean sure, I've got a fairly healthy endure stat already and a bit of body should something get through, so I probably won't die all that fast.

But I do have a tendency to somehow get into these situations where even a high leveled character with decent stats won't help me *coughnukedoorcough*, which worries me a bit.

Could always switch to civvie with +10 endurance (or another class of course). Lose the transcend resistance, gain chance for resurrection/incarnation after death.

Or check if perhaps other methods exist/could be made to revive you, like a memory bank back-up unit or something.

[Pancaek]

Could always switch to civvie with +10 endurance (or another class of course). Lose the transcend resistance, gain chance for resurrection/incarnation after death.

Or check if perhaps other methods exist/could be made to revive you, like a memory bank back-up unit or something.

I'm just going to roll with it, because surely a situation like my personal 'nam from ER won't show up a second time. Right?

[Radio Controlled]

Could always switch to civvie with +10 endurance (or another class of course). Lose the transcend resistance, gain chance for resurrection/incarnation after death.

Or check if perhaps other methods exist/could be made to revive you, like a memory bank back-up unit or something.

I'm just going to roll with it, because surely a situation like my personal 'nam from ER won't show up a second time. Right?

I wouldn't worry about it. I'm sure it won't be nukes this time...

[The Lupanian]

Not really on topic, but if when people die, they go to the deep sea, and when people are in the deep sea, monsters come, we can expect monsters to show at death like flies to a corpse, right? Sounds awesome if you ask me.

[Rautherdir]

So, I have two questions:
Can we avoid the high risk of death from Giant’s/Titan’s/Behemoth’s Engine installations by installing one of them into a body and then being resurrected or otherwise transferred into it?
Can I gather knowledge to make a reference guide? (+x bonus to find rolls made searching for information in the archive)

[Devastator]

So, I have two questions:
Can we avoid the high risk of death from Giant’s/Titan’s/Behemoth’s Engine installations by installing one of them into a body and then being resurrected or otherwise transferred into it?

I don't know the answer to this, but that seems like a plan to avoid death that requires dying.

[syvarris]

As far as the other ideas related to resurrection, I think it's fair to change it to be similar to what dev was talking about.  I'm gonna modify it tomorrow.

What?  But Dev came up with the worst version!  He specifically designed it to punish gameplay he personally dislike, namely specialized people and people with high transcendence!  Dev is tantamount to a troll right now.

I still think it would be best if you A: could not replace the Body stat by resurrection (because that makes starting Body very nearly worthless), and B: lose only Body and Mind upon resurrection, because that is less crippling and matches the backstory of Roa Deathless.  Also, making the gradual mind damage permanent is downright cruel, without actually fixing the overpowered nature of anything--the people who stay dead for ten hours aren't the ones who need a nerf, it's the people who get rezzed within an hour that do.

[Egan_BW]

Given that a part of you extends "downwards" into the deep sea, that means that even sea creatures can mess with you while you're not diving, right? Kinda like bad spirits.
The fact that you have to disconnect from your body to go to level 6 seems to imply to me that humans are 6 levels deep. (Body on level 0, mind extends from levels 1 through 5.)

[Devastator]

As far as the other ideas related to resurrection, I think it's fair to change it to be similar to what dev was talking about.  I'm gonna modify it tomorrow.

What?  But Dev came up with the worst version!  He specifically designed it to punish gameplay he personally dislike, namely specialized people and people with high transcendence!  Dev is tantamount to a troll right now.

I'm assuming that it won't be transcendance, but instead be a random stat.  I wanted transcendance because I thought that would be the prerequisite for resurrection, and wanted to make subsequent resurrections harder.  As for the other cost, I thought it would be basically base cost + level adjustment.

[Rautherdir]

As far as the other ideas related to resurrection, I think it's fair to change it to be similar to what dev was talking about.  I'm gonna modify it tomorrow.

What?  But Dev came up with the worst version!  He specifically designed it to punish gameplay he personally dislike, namely specialized people and people with high transcendence!  Dev is tantamount to a troll right now.

I still think it would be best if you A: could not replace the Body stat by resurrection (because that makes starting Body very nearly worthless), and B: lose only Body and Mind upon resurrection, because that is less crippling and matches the backstory of Roa Deathless.  Also, making the gradual mind damage permanent is downright cruel, without actually fixing the overpowered nature of anything--the people who stay dead for ten hours aren't the ones who need a nerf, it's the people who get rezzed within an hour that do.

A) It makes sense that the new body would have stats derived from the success of building/repairing the body. In my view, the starting body just keeps us alive until we can get a better one.
B) Resurrection is done by other people. Incarnation is all you. I do have a suggestion for how to nerf incarnation:
1. Actions affecting at least 3 levels away from you in the deep sea always attract monsters.
2. Whenever you take mind damage, every ability you have leveled above (60 - [damage x 10]) generates a roll with (damage x 10) difficulty to avoid losing (damage) ability points. (Those equations are guesswork. I have no idea what kind of damage we would be taking, these equations assume low damage numbers.)

Or something like that. That helps prevent quick self-resurrections. It doesn't affect resurrections that much if we do resurrection with more than one person.

[Radio Controlled]

Maybe we should take a step back and first try to clearly state what the perceived problems exactly are before we propose solutions.

Personally, I do think that we should try to ensure that certain stats (mostly body) don't become almost useless (or at least inferior to the other stats), which I think would happen if bodystat was purely an attribute of the body you inhabit, and making new bodies is pretty easy.

Difficult resurrection could help with this, but I don't think that'd cut it (and is easy to deal with through some cooperation I suspect). Maybe limit perks from bodies to non-stat things.

Prevent death becoming too cheap. I think eating some permanent stat and/or attribute loss on death would be reasonable, though how much and from what stats I'm not sure. Maybe just deduct some points from a random (non-zero?) stat, and increase the amount you loose per death.

Making incarnation difficult, but keeping assisted resurrection doable.
Maybe just add a flat number to the requirements to make it difficult enough without harming normal rezzing.

Oh, and the starting classes imbalance. Already talked about that though, might just be me.

Anyways, just some stream of thought, most of this is probably useless/repeat of things already said.

[syvarris]

Spoiler: Radio responded while I was writing this (click to show/hide)

@Dev
It isn't level adjustment though, because levels don't exist in Dig.  We have our base stats, and equipped items, and that's all we have.  Giving larger penalties for higher skills just punishes people who start off specialized.  It has no relation to how developed a character is.

@Rauth (A)
And yet, you've wasted 25 points on Body, the most worthless attribute.

Body is only used to tank damage you take in realspace, and is mitigated by fight or blast skill, endure skill, and simple caution to not get harmed.  Mind is comparably more valuable, because it has only one tanking skill (transcend), acts as a timer on how long you can wait before being revived, and is harder to avoid getting harmed, since you can't really hunker behind a wall to avoid a Deep Sea attack.  Stamina, finally, fuels all actions and generally just lets you do more, which is more valuable than an HP stat that is only used when you screw up.  It also lets you be placed in bigger Bodies via resurrection.

Now, Body is the weakest of those three, so it's least harmful to be able to replace freely.  However, that also means starting with it very high is a mistake, because you'll be able to get a solid body later, and have your more useful stats be higher to boot!

This is just a balance complaint.  I'm pointing out there's a useless stat, and suggesting a way to make it just a poor stat rather than entirely worthless.  At the same time, I'm also recommending a way to make things slightly more interesting in-universe, since resurrection degrading bodies makes repeated death more meaningful.

@Rauth (B)
The described system is very poor, because it just encourages more specialization.  Suffer six damage, and you might be able to have your high stats be unharmed, but your low stats are all gonna be gimped.  Suffer three (or less) damage, and nothing will happen because all the damaged stats score autosuccesses.

I also don't really see how it notably affects Incarnation.  Mind damage from inhabiting the new body?  There's not much loss in just taking a 3 point Body, since you can always be rezzed into something better later.

[Radio Controlled]

One thing that makes body be a bit better than you said is that, with very low bodystat, any damage you do suffer isn't just gonna kill you, but also destroy the body, making rezzing potentially more difficult (though easy assembly of new bodies mitigates this). Maybe there should be a penalty to rezzing/incarnating if it's not into your previous body.

[syvarris]

@Radio
Yeah, starting classes are extremely unbalanced.  I've just been trying to ignore it, lest I go off like I've been doing with resurrection/incarnation.  _{Plus there's tons of other little things I'm tempted to go off about}

Your recap of flaws is pretty much my understanding, yeah.  To state my ideal system:

• You cannot inhabit a new body with Body greater than your original Body.  If you try, the new body's Body is lowered to match.
• On every revival, you permanently lose some number of Body and Mind points, probably a fairly low number.  For the purposes of the prior point, permanent Body losses are considered to subtract from your original Body.
• Incarnation, while not being significantly more difficult if you have the stats (no Deep Sea level 6 needed), drains more points than normal resurrection.
• There are no penalties based upon how long you wait, or to any skills.

A penalty for rezzing into a new body could be good, but it would have to be extremely harsh to balance replacing body.  If I lose ten mind points, but saved fifteen by simply not spending any on Body, well, I still came out ahead.  Maybe incarnation into your own (original) body could be quite easy, so that it's accessible to people without specialized incarnation builds, but with the penalty that you obviously need to have high starting Body for it to survive.