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[Egan_BW]

Let's not fully turn this into "Dau and moles are immortal, everyone else is chunky salsa as Dev wills it", shall we?

[syvarris]

That would mean that you need a little less than ~70 Transcendence to Incarnate, since Level 6 is a DC 80 check.  Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily.

First and most obvious remedy is to make the checks all have modified difficulty, rather than just being "Your mind" or "The new vessel's Body".  In the main thread, you told MJ that building a six armed body would require a check of 30+Body Stat; why should it be any cheaper if you're in the Deep Sea?  Similarly, any character who's focused on Transcendence will have thirty points in it at least.  Make the mind check have a base of twenty or thirty or something.  Maybe more, if you wanna lock it to higher T people.

Maybe say that when you're dead, you can only take one action per hour, which  means you take one mind damage per action.  That at least ensures people will be hurt before incarnating, while still allowing someone else to come in and rescue them.  Another option would be to say that when you Incarnate a new body, you take permanent damage to your mind stat to pay for it; that'll result in everyone incarnating into 1 Body bodies, but it's still a massive nerf to incarnation.

Actually, having permanent stat damage upon death would be a great idea--the Roa Deathless entry mentions how they're continually revived until either the body or mind is broken, but the system as-is doesn't cause you any permanent harm.  Making death actually harmful would make that entry make sense.  It would also make sense if you can't possess arbitrarily high Body bodies, instead being capped at your original Body (which lowers with every death); this at least means nobody will engage in shenanigans like I am, where you start with 1 Body and then get placed into a new custom body with 20 Body or something.

@Errant Ocelot
The other option is "Everyone is immortal", which while perhaps an interesting game concept, is not at all what this system is built for.  Kinda sad, I think it would be neat to see an ER style game which is built to handle everyone being capable of reincarnation.

[piecewise]

Let's not fully turn this into "Dau and moles are immortal, everyone else is chunky salsa as Dev wills it", shall we?

That is the major problem. Ressurrection, if nothing else, should be SOMEWHAT accessible, and Incarnation should be the realm only of the heavy transendence people. Having someone put you in a new body requires other people to do things for you and is thus less abusable. Its like being healed from negative hitpoints or brought back in ER. But being able to die and then forcibly reform a body and incarnate again is fuckign doc manhattan levels.   So having ressurrection be fairly easy while making incarnation hard is basically exactly what it should be.

That would mean that you need a little less than ~70 Transcendence to Incarnate, since Level 6 is a DC 80 check.  Not that that's a bad thing, necessarily.

First and most obvious remedy is to make the checks all have modified difficulty, rather than just being "Your mind" or "The new vessel's Body".  In the main thread, you told MJ that building a six armed body would require a check of 30+Body Stat; why should it be any cheaper if you're in the Deep Sea?  Similarly, any character who's focused on Transcendence will have thirty points in it at least.  Make the mind check have a base of twenty or thirty or something.  Maybe more, if you wanna lock it to higher T people.

Maybe say that when you're dead, you can only take one action per hour, which  means you take one mind damage per action.  That at least ensures people will be hurt before incarnating, while still allowing someone else to come in and rescue them.  Another option would be to say that when you Incarnate a new body, you take permanent damage to your mind stat to pay for it; that'll result in everyone incarnating into 1 Body bodies, but it's still a massive nerf to incarnation.

Actually, having permanent stat damage upon death would be a great idea--the Roa Deathless entry mentions how they're continually revived until either the body or mind is broken, but the system as-is doesn't cause you any permanent harm.  Making death actually harmful would make that entry make sense.  It would also make sense if you can't possess arbitrarily high Body bodies, instead being capped at your original Body (which lowers with every death); this at least means nobody will engage in shenanigans like I am, where you start with 1 Body and then get placed into a new custom body with 20 Body or something.

@Errant Ocelot
The other option is "Everyone is immortal", which while perhaps an interesting game concept, is not at all what this system is built for.  Kinda sad, I think it would be neat to see an ER style game which is built to handle everyone being capable of reincarnation.

I think harder rolls for incarnating combined with damage from death is probably best.

The idea of ER where everyone can always incarnate is...wait I have a game like that....I think it's called Revolver or repeater.  Remind me about it and I'll find it when I return home.

I'm gonna edit the rules a bit.

[Egan_BW]

Could be fun to have a game where all the players are immortal angels, and can only get banished to the home could place or whatever. Then when the Permakilling weapons come out, you know Shit Just Got Real.

PW, is knowledge useful for anything other than building things? Like coming up with new combat techniques or something.
Also, knowledge can't be transferred between players, but wouldn't it make some sense if someone with knowledge could help train someone to get that same knowledge? Like, if someone gets all that's needed for a particular thing, they could help out someone else and they'd only need half knowledge?
Mostly ask these questions because it seems likely that people with no Building ability will end up with Knowledge and have nothing to spend it on.

alsoalso! Does the Bore have some kind of PA system so we can communicate between decks?

[piecewise]

Could be fun to have a game where all the players are immortal angels, and can only get banished to the home could place or whatever. Then when the Permakilling weapons come out, you know Shit Just Got Real.

PW, is knowledge useful for anything other than building things? Like coming up with new combat techniques or something.
Also, knowledge can't be transferred between players, but wouldn't it make some sense if someone with knowledge could help train someone to get that same knowledge? Like, if someone gets all that's needed for a particular thing, they could help out someone else and they'd only need half knowledge?
Mostly ask these questions because it seems likely that people with no Building ability will end up with Knowledge and have nothing to spend it on.

alsoalso! Does the Bore have some kind of PA system so we can communicate between decks?

Knowledge exists basically as a gameplay thing to allow the creation of new stuff and player based economies of sorts without having to create recipies and gather up garbage. Thats why its non-transferable and why you can't just remake things over and over. Because knowledge is considered to be not only the ideas needed but the goods.

and knowledge is gained via looking for knowledge on that thing, rather than passively via anything else.  A combat technique would basically have to function like any other piece of equipment, giving bonuses, except it would be "built" using fight or blast and knowledge.

We could do that, really. Have you create techiques with some bonus you want and then I say "ok, you need this much knowledge to make it,  and it will cost this much stamina to use."

But I worry about that causing Tinker Syndrome.


Also yes, the Bore has a PA system. There are speaker/microphone boxes in most rooms so you can talk among them. But it is directed to a ROOM, not a person, so everyone in the room will hear it.

[piecewise]

Ok so now incarnation is harder, as is resurrection. The caveat being that resurrection can be done by two or more people, so you only need 1 good builder and 1 good transcender. To incarnate you need to be both AND have gone to the 6th level.

[Egan_BW]

So would one of the things I could do with techniques be that I can learn Parkour, which gives me a bonus +10 Move at the cost of an extra 2 stamina per turn?

So, use 40 Knowledge to learn the Technique Parkour, which acts as an item that gives me +10 move, but costs 2 stamina to activate.

[Devastator]

What comes to mind would be making reincarnation worth 5 points loss of transcendance after succeeding, with any mind damage taken for the duration while you're out being permanent, because some of you doesn't come back.  Transcendance check would 20+ half your highest ability, or the equivalent in dive levels of the deep sea.  Build check would be 10+ half your total attributes for the new body.  You could leave points behind intentionally if you feel the check would be too hard.

[Egan_BW]

Is stamina a property of the mind or the body? That seems kinda important.
I like the idea of having to leave being part of your abilities to resurrect. Permanent stat loss is pretty harsh in this system, but makes sense. Getting your mind snipped from your body isn't something you just walk away from, unless you're really powerful.

[piecewise]

So would one of the things I could do with techniques be that I can learn Parkour, which gives me a bonus +10 Move at the cost of an extra 2 stamina per turn?

So, use 40 Knowledge to learn the Technique Parkour, which acts as an item that gives me +10 move, but costs 2 stamina to activate.

I feel the tinker overtaking me already. The balancing....the balancing!

But yes, thats the general idea.

What comes to mind would be making reincarnation worth 5 points loss of transcendance after succeeding, with any mind damage taken for the duration while you're out being permanent, because some of you doesn't come back.  Transcendance check would 20+ half your highest ability, or the equivalent in dive levels of the deep sea.  Build check would be 10+ half your total attributes for the new body.  You could leave points behind intentionally if you feel the check would be too hard.

I would think 5 points of any random stat taken per traumatic death would be more reasonable. Because otherwise we end up targeting stat loss towards one particular kind of player while combat focused players can be dragged out and stuck in new bodies constantly with no downside.

[Egan_BW]

Right now his system damages mind, transcend, and whatever your highest stat is. This introduces some extra danger to minmaxed characters, like me or syv.

And hey mate, you're the one who included a Build stat, made it the only reliable way to get most items, and tied in a whole Knowledge system to limit it. The only explanation is that you secretly love this, because you brought it on yourself.

[Devastator]

What comes to mind would be making reincarnation worth 5 points loss of transcendance after succeeding, with any mind damage taken for the duration while you're out being permanent, because some of you doesn't come back.  Transcendance check would 20+ half your highest ability, or the equivalent in dive levels of the deep sea.  Build check would be 10+ half your total attributes for the new body.  You could leave points behind intentionally if you feel the check would be too hard.

I would think 5 points of any random stat taken per traumatic death would be more reasonable. Because otherwise we end up targeting stat loss towards one particular kind of player while combat focused players can be dragged out and stuck in new bodies constantly with no downside.

I thought if you didn't have the transcend, you aren't coming back.  (That is, it would be targetting the stat that you had to have in order to resurrect at all.)  If that's not how it is, sure, sounds fine... although, as a penalty, 5 points isn't that much, given the 100 points to start off with and the ease of acquiring +10 or better bonuses through equipment.

[piecewise]

What comes to mind would be making reincarnation worth 5 points loss of transcendance after succeeding, with any mind damage taken for the duration while you're out being permanent, because some of you doesn't come back.  Transcendance check would 20+ half your highest ability, or the equivalent in dive levels of the deep sea.  Build check would be 10+ half your total attributes for the new body.  You could leave points behind intentionally if you feel the check would be too hard.

I would think 5 points of any random stat taken per traumatic death would be more reasonable. Because otherwise we end up targeting stat loss towards one particular kind of player while combat focused players can be dragged out and stuck in new bodies constantly with no downside.

I thought if you didn't have the transcend, you aren't coming back.  (That is, it would be targetting the stat that you had to have in order to resurrect at all.)  If that's not how it is, sure, sounds fine.

You couldn't incarnate, but you can be resurrected by others even if you have 0 transcend.

[Devastator]

You couldn't incarnate, but you can be resurrected by others even if you have 0 transcend.

Hmm, so the only way to be safe from resurrection is the Engineheart archetype.

[piecewise]

Right now his system damages mind, transcend, and whatever your highest stat is. This introduces some extra danger to minmaxed characters, like me or syv.

And hey mate, you're the one who included a Build stat, made it the only reliable way to get most items, and tied in a whole Knowledge system to limit it. The only explanation is that you secretly love this, because you brought it on yourself.

Hmm well lets try the use of knowledge for "techniques" then shall we? But be prepared to suck some stamina costs. 2 seems too low for me by far.



As far as the other ideas related to resurrection, I think it's fair to change it to be similar to what dev was talking about.  I'm gonna modify it tomorrow.

You couldn't incarnate, but you can be resurrected by others even if you have 0 transcend.

Hmm, so the only way to be safe from resurrection is the Engineheart archetype.

Safe? Well if you didn't want to go back you can just say so.