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[Nichelangelo]

Hello everybody and happy new year. This is my first post in the DF forums.

Question: Are the invaders able to use bows/crossbows while swimmig in 7/7 one title deep moat?

I'm speculating with a certain type of defense layout, where the invaders could be dropped in a moat and finished by my marksdwarves without a risk of elite bowmen and crossbowmen shooting back through my fortifications.

[Lozzymandias]

Merry new year!

Yes invaders can use ranged weapons from water. But an invader swimming will not be on the same z level as a fortification. If it is then so will the water, and water will flow through the fortifications. The bigger risk is invaders climbing out of the water and shooting inwards.

[steel jackal]

instead of a water filled moat you should do a dry moat with an overhang

example
=X=======
++====+++
+=====+++
+=====+++
+=====+++
+++++++++

this is a side view, + is a wall or floor, = is empty space, and x is a fortification

the way this works is that in a normal moat enemies can just climb up the wall, but the overhang stops them, thus trapping them. enemies can also jump now, but they cant jump forward AND up, so putting a fortification on top of the ledge will prevent them from jumping over, and prevent your dwarves from jumping in the pit with them.


also a bit of a note with marksdwarves, they suck at shooting moving targets, nothing in this game has target prediction yet, so if you want a shooting gallery you should make it so that enemies have to run straight at your marksdwarves, but are diverted before they get to them

you would have a hallway leading twards your marksdwarves, and then have the gap in front of the fortifications, and then have the hall turn so that it goes around the "pillbox" and into an arena with your melee dwarves.

[Fleeting Frames]

Steel jackal, just fyi:  that overhang is climbable, as there is wall/fortification diagonally above to grab hold on to.

Replace fortification+overhang with vertical bars/grate to avoid this (buildings aren't climbable). Or make it jut out 2 tiles, but then - you can't shoot all the spaces inside, probs.

As for the OP, I believe the idea would mostly* work, provided you stop them from climbing out somehow and your bolts are of stronger metal than the armour covering their vitals. Bonus: Get more than just marksdwarves hardened to sentient death with viewing ports.

* Well, goblins, elves and humans lack native swimming skill, so they're going to drown in 7/7 water - to train intelligent invaders in swimming without killing them, use 4-6 water instead. They'll build combat attributes and become more beefy as result.

Or if you want to just kill them, enough high speed impacts from copper minecart will kill pretty much anything.

[Bumber]

Maybe you can use floor grates as an overhang? Can you shoot through those?

[Nichelangelo]

The point was to neutralize elite bowmen and crossbowmen as easy as possible before the mid-game, when I'm ready to build an automatic drowning chamber. I don't have a problem with regular goblins.

I have strong house rules against too easy or unrealistic trap builds. Therefore I don't use, for example, atom smashers or mine carts.

But it seems that before the end-game adamantine-armored militia, the easiest way to get rid of elite bowmen and crossbowmen without a major risk of getting the dwarves injured during the process, is to build a proper drowning chamber.

[Nichelangelo]

Maybe you can use floor grates as an overhang? Can you shoot through those?

I'm pretty sure the dwarves and invaders are not able to shoot through floor grates. Wall grates in other hand are completely different case. Grates also don't act as fortifications, since they don't prevent the enemies shooting back.

[Immortal-D]

You could also build a Dwarven Catapult (not to be confused with a regular catapult).  This is simply a bridge with items dumped atop it.  Said items will achieve a range and damage that rivals any bow.  Admittedly, the accuracy of this weapon leaves much to be desired.

[Fleeting Frames]

If you build that in the pit, it could act as rockstar "training", quicly killing the invaders, provided they don't get flung out, fly out or hold onto walls.

@Nichelangelo: Eh, I dunno about automating a drowning chamber, but ultimately any trap that kills all the enemies works out the same. 

After this are the side costs, such as cost to build and (FPS) cost to use, which would be a main reason to choose minecart over water, retracting bridge, or a shooting gallery with enemies unable to respond. (There's also the benefit of getting an Escaped Lunatic - assumed new player - to use minecarts early, since they're one of the funnest parts of DF for me, but I guess I misread you )

If you want to neutralize only elite enemy crossbowmen, I've heard suggestions of pastures of hard-to-kill animals being surrounded by fortifications, so that only those will waste their bolts.

However, I imagine if you completely cover your dwarves in superior metal it's a moot point, as exemplified by Is it just me or did 43.05 nerf crossbows into the ground?

Not sure if you have that in early game, though I do know some advocate for getting a military dwarf or 2 outfitted in full metal covering by the end of first week.

[Bumber]

What about crossbow dwarves riding minecarts? I recall someone found that they can shoot while riding a minecart. Maybe the speed makes them harder to hit.

[Fleeting Frames]

It does - the arrows and bolt are aimed at where the dwarf was, not where they will be. Go just fast enough and they'll be only hit if the shooter is blind.

[Nichelangelo]

@Nichelangelo: Eh, I dunno about automating a drowning chamber, but ultimately any trap that kills all the enemies works out the same. 

I was refering to my house rules, which restrict using too easy or too unrealistic trap designs. But interesting ideas nevertheless.

One more question though. If they can shoot while swimming, can they shoot while climbing?

Like... goblings hanging on the fortifications and shooting the marksdwarves on the other side?

[Bumber]

IIRC, you can shoot while climbing in adventure mode, so I'd assume so. (Or maybe it was just dropping stuff on people's heads that you can do.)

[ReynTheLord]

Trap design? DESIGN? just get all the cages you can and spam the ever living hell out of cage traps

[Fleeting Frames]

Problem with that is it won't work on werebeasts/procedural beast/kobolds/liaison-spoiled armies, while things that work on all of those also work on anything a cage trap can catch. (Though the catching feature is still useful)