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[DrTank09]

So I'm making an embark and I was thinking, how do I make it realistic that my dwarves are here and it came to me.  they have to have money from me somehow and I can't be able to take it from them.  I offer goods to pay for each dwarf on a yearly basis through the caravan on credit.  I have 7 dwarves?  well they come work with me and get paid a rate that is determined by their skills, proficiency, and what they are allowed to be made to do.  Hazard pay? you cost an extra 200 dwarfbucks.  You are a legendary miner? you cost an extra 50 dwarf bucks?  You are an expert negotiator? you cost an extra 10% to the nearest 10 dwarf bucks.

any thoughts?  I could use help balancing this and setting out the rates.

[☼Another☼]

How would you pay them? With rooms, offices, ect. or giving them items?

[DrTank09]

Payment would be through goods sold to the traders at the "Offer tribute" value

If I owe my dwarves 6000 Dwarfbucks, I offer it as a tribute to the caravan.

Not having a room costs so much
having a nice room reduces my cost by so much etc.

the only people I don't have to pay for are the ones that are nobles, because they own the land.

[FakerFangirl]

get paid a rate that is determined by their skills, proficiency, and what they are allowed to be made to do.

[steel jackal]

interesting concept.

there was a dwarven economy, however it was removed due to it being REALLY problematic, so now dwarves basically live as the ultimate communists.

i like the idea of actually having to pay your dwarves as if they came from somewhere else and are now sending their money to their families back home

but what would they do with a <<+*gold crown*+>>? perhaps coins (which have no functional use due to said economy being off) could be used to pay your dwarves.

oh, or maybe if a dwarves family all lives at your fort you could dump the gold into a vault in their home and then forbid it (that way others couldent take it) so they could have this huge room filled with gold coins and gems like every dwarf wants

[Fleeting Frames]

Lets not forget "who pays the money printers".

How much is worth smelting a stack of gold coins? The value of the coins minus the raw material? And then paying for raw material...

Thus, you can't actually pay people what they're worth if you want to function. You can't even pay them half of what they're worth.

And of course, raw material based jobs tend to kinda shaft miners as they generate less than ⛭ per job.

Perhaps accounting is most difficult part of this, though.

But instead of dwarfbucks...Perhaps things that make them happy and satisfy their needs? i.e. your most productive mason shouldn't suffer under a lack of abstract thinking.

[steel jackal]

Lets not forget "who pays the money printers".

How much is worth smelting a stack of gold coins? The value of the coins minus the raw material? And then paying for raw material...

Thus, you can't actually pay people what they're worth if you want to function. You can't even pay them half of what they're worth.

And of course, raw material based jobs tend to kinda shaft miners as they generate less than ⛭ per job.

Perhaps accounting is most difficult part of this, though.

But instead of dwarfbucks...Perhaps things that make them happy and satisfy their needs? i.e. your most productive mason shouldn't suffer under a lack of abstract thinking.

the american economy is based on debt, banks give out loans by magically assigning worth to pieces of cotton paper, people use that money to make stuff which they sell for more money, and give the money back to the bank.

thus with this system, theres always somebody in debt, and its the people in debt that make the world go round.


really, to make a realistic economy in DF would require the overseer to basically be commander data or some other advanced intelligence who is capable of balancing debt across the entire world to ensure it works right, thats why the dwarven economy didnt work, because it was so fragile because it was realistic, and a single mind who is trying to keep track of many things just cant handle it.

IRL we have many minds who are dedicated to making the economy work, as well as the individuals who are careful with how they spend, and thus it is able to function (most of the time)

in DF communism works because everybody works as hard as they can despite everybody getting "paid" "equally" and thus the industry works wonderfully instead of everything going into depression because everybody is too lazy to do their job right because "why should i care if i make 5lbs of plump helmets or 500lbs of plump helmets if im gonna get paid the same?"



i do like the idea of dwarves getting paid for their work, but how do you introduce an economy to a fort?

when a fort is settled everyone is working together to build a place to live, of course they are going to pool all their resources together for their own survival, but what about once everything is set up? how do you divide all the resources fairly? how do you make it so that people get paid for their work? what value does the currency have? WHY does the currency have value?

im just sitting here trying to think about how this could work, because i really want it to, but im absolutely stumped.

it would be really nice if there by chance happened to be somebody with a degree in whatever analyzing economies is called was on these forums, then we could just ask them

[omega_dwarf]

Interesting. Perhaps if you didn't want to throw away all the wealth you'd be producing, you could give each dwarf a vault, outside his/her bedroom/dining quarters' boundaries, but near enough that one could roleplay it as part of their room? And when they die, it all gets passed along to their tomb (maybe by bridge), sealed away forever. When someone is appointed to certain positions, or becomes an innkeeper, you could roleplay it as having purchased that position, taking away some of their trove in exchange for ownership of the inn/library/temple/etc., and that being the dwarf's sole duty. Payments could be made by stockpile links, although it could potentially take some time; maybe by some insane minecart mechanism instead.

Just idle suggestions rather than any real advice Although a legendary miner has got to be worth more than 50 dwarfbucks, especially if you're literally sitting on a gold mine, as my forts several times have been. Perhaps the pay should be as percentage of fort GDP?

Keeping all the items hoarded should also (I think?) hurry your fort to prominence within your civ and infamy among your enemies.

[Fleeting Frames]

Percentage of fort's GDP does run into the issue of artifacts, designed buildings and artifacts in designed buildings (Up to 24*120*item value*material value....).

Kinda weird motivation issues there to keep wealth low, to not mention "we can't afford to link this mechanism to that bridge".

[Bradders]

I remember reading about the dwarven economy, how dwarves would generate cash based on their assigned/skilled job, would be 'taxed' on their living quarters, would hoard coins along with their other belongings, would be jailed for not having enough coin to pay for their lodging, and then your whole fort:

• Starves because that was the only farmer
• Dies of infection because that was your doctor
• Stops  working because that was your brewer
• Something Something Tantrum Spiral
• ? ? ? ?
• Profit!  (For the accountant)

Not sure if want...

[DrTank09]

Woah, you guys went way deeper than I expected, I enjoy all the enthusiasm.  Maybe I should be a bit clearer on how the economy I was thinking of worked.

We cam lump all non skill labors like hauling and construction into one group.  The cost of this labor is the base for every dwarf, lets say it is 10df.  The dwarves come to the fort seeking labor, if we give them a different job, that cost includes this one.

so now we add other things to the mix and we can go as deep or as shallow as we want to.

Mining pay equals base (*/+) skill (*/+/-) any premium we decide to add (Such as if the dwarf is a high or low negotiator compared to our noble, hazard pay, dreams?

Mining base pay is going to be an additional 15 base with the miner being a skill of 10 so he is worth 150df at this point (miner base*skill) and we have decided that hazard pay is going to be 50 to top it off.

This miner costs 200

Lets look at a gem cutter that we hired

She is a gem cutter that we didn't really need, but because her dream was to create a work of art and we are letting her do that, she gets a negative premium.

Her cost is going to be a base of 20 and a skill of 3 so 60df.  Her premium is that she is terrible at negotiation and we don't need the gem cutter so she gets a minus 10 df and is now a 50df worker


Lets add the housing to it now.

really expensive dwarves may cost a pretty dwarfbuck, which is what we want because that means that they are doing a great job at whatever they are doing or some such.  We can throw in negative deductions by adding in the type of housing they have?

this is auto calculated for us through room quality.  Urist has a modest quarters, that has a numeric cost of 100df by the programing.

now Urist McMiner costs 100

We own everything in the fort, so by giving this to the mountainhome, we are actually removing our ownership of the item, which is the real reason why we don't see it.  It is our pay to the dwarves so why should we be able to keep it?  Any other items the dwarves take while we are working are bonuses that have been given to them for some reason or another, similar to the way that our own employers might have a bonus check or raffle which explains why then lisa got the golden tiara... that b!t$# she wins everything and doesn't even do half the work I do.. and yet she won the tv at the thanksgiving party?

In any case, if we can't afford the dwarf, they strike and we can't use them except for hauling.  Similar to a lay-off when a company can't afford to pay for a hire.  Those we have invested in, such as the ones with awesome homes, don't have to worry about loss of work.

everything can be managed by dt by making a custom profession for dwarves that we contract or by simply saying that we are allowing these labors on the dwarf no matter what.

[King Kitteh]

Economy is planned to make a comeback eventually, right?

[DrTank09]

Yeah, TodayOne has mentioned it, but I don't remember when.  Its usually talked about as such: "when TodayOne puts the economy back in"

[Fleeting Frames]

What about military and entertainers? I may not value a great poet/speaker/negotiator more than an immigrant soaper, but from their perspective they're triple-great and lot more valuable than hauler peasant.

And military produces no goods.

In any case, if we can't afford the dwarf, they strike and we can't use them except for hauling.  Similar to a lay-off when a company can't afford to pay for a hire.  Those we have invested in, such as the ones with awesome homes, don't have to worry about loss of work.

If dwarf produces more than they are worth, not affording them isn't going to be likely.

Still, issue is that lot of jobs are going to be done only at setup, once, etc - you'll end up producing food, booze, trade goods (to pay, at least) and maybe clothes. So, going to pay the rest hauler pay, even if they're idling their days away?

Now, it means that stuff like every citizen getting royal rooms isn't possible...But what about fallbacks?
So what happens to the legendary miner who dug out the fortess on their own, including their royal room?
What happens to the legendary woodcutter who provided the materials for the fortress standing over landscape and wood for the forges beneath?

They can't pay, so...Move out? When they can simply make their own legendary rooms?
Which is why nobles jailed and hammered those, I suppose. Either way, feels like there's some injustice here.

[oldmansutton]

Any other items the dwarves take while we are working are bonuses that have been given to them for some reason or another, similar to the way that our own employers might have a bonus check or raffle which explains why then lisa got the golden tiara... that b!t$# she wins everything and doesn't even do half the work I do.. and yet she won the tv at the thanksgiving party?

Yeah... damnit, Lisa!