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[Nilbert]

This would work, but the micromanagement leaves for so many errors that I would quickly loose correct count.  The craft may be of standard quality, but how much orthoclase are we going to use to make those crafts.  Eventually the worker would become so skilled that we no longer have standard quality crafts unless we pull another worker from another area to take over.

Coins would be the ultimate value standard, but the problem lies in that stack can not be broken up except for during trade and those broken up stacks must be sent with the caravan for them to stay as stacks.  This makes it so that division of a base unit.. say 1 stack of gold coins which may be 500, can not be reduced to the .2 and .3 amounts that you speak of below.

Micromanagement would be an issue for sure.  Coins would be much easier but as you point out, there is no way to break up the stacks.  As for quality, it would improve making the 'low denomination' rock craft less abundant.  I suppose it would really depend on how much a dwarf is really earning.  If it divides out that they are making thousands of dwarf bucks, rounding to the nearest 50 or 100 dwarf buck may not be much of an issue.  One could also add gold and silver crafts as the larger denominations.  Micromanagement though...  Maybe payment every five years as if they signed a long term contract for a particular job...

I really like where this is going and where your through process went.  Thank you for your historical information.  Now lies the problem of finding our variable of base cost.

lets say that food, basic lodging, safety, and a basic tomb is equal to .5
all the non-skilled non-lords will be under this .5 limit and thus no longer require being paid.

Artisans below level 10 work for the guilds and earn 1 while paying half of that to the guild until level 10 as they are only apprentices and are paying for their training.
Artisans earn 2 having completed their training at level 10, increasing by 1 each level which puts them at 7 by legendary status.  (I like the number seven)

I was thinking that soldiers should have longer contracts than regular people in order to pay for their arms and armor.  They earn only .5 for the first 30 years, after that they can continue to work as honor positions for a pay of 2 or they can retire and live freely meaning that if they decide to do any other work, they earn the .5 on top of whatever else they do.. even if it is just hauling.  The armor and weapons are theirs and go with them to their tomb.  Unretired soldiers live in a barracks, retired and honored soldiers get their own rooms.  All soldiers get a fair quality tomb and include their arms and armor.

Guild masters make the .5 off of every member in their profession.
Militia commander gets a base of 5 (Director of Defense has a salary of 205k)
Militia captain gets a base of 2 and may only be chosen from those that have mastered the art of their weapon or have worked for the 30 year period and have decided to stay.

Captain of the guard gets 4 (director of FBI has a salary of 170k)

Mayor is 10

Manager, broker, bookkeeper, etc. they all get 2.

This is all the private money going out.  So since the wealth of the nobility is owned by the state, they don't have to be paid, they just get to choose how the state wealth is used for bartering and such.. hence the mandates.

how does that look?

I like this.  A thought I had after my last post on division of all wealth was that some of the created wealth would be in furniture and the like which couldn't be divided easily.  Under this setup, there is a built in rent that accounts for this wealth with the 'real' benefactor as the noble.  I also like the 'purchase of armor' implied debt on the soldiers.  One could also think of it as soldiers having a choice of quality of armor and weapons and how long they are in debt paying them off.  Masterpiece armor takes 30 years, while the rickety old goblinite junk can be paid off in a year or two.  Would give the soldiers who put in the time and are true professionals the better quality stuff and the cannon fodder, well, they may just not hope for a war...  Are you thinking each profession grouping (stone masons, metal workers, gem cutters, etc.) is a single guild with a single guild master?  I have built forts that way with a clan per guild and the 'master' being hereditary.  I didn't attempt accumulating individual wealth under that system, but that sounds fun.  I'd think the poor legendary journeymen could end up being stuck paying the fee no matter what (unless there is an unfortunate accident of course).

As for the break down in salaries, I like it.  Peasants stay at subsistence... that'd make the micromanagement easier as they'd never really have anything outside the basics.  Could also think of the guild members of signing long term agreements.  Apprentice for twenty years, journeymen for twenty years, etc. with payout at the end of each contract.  This would mean in terms of setting up the stockpiles that it doesn't happen very often.  Also gives an opportunity for guild masters to kick out those they don't like or see as competition...  Arbitrary abuse of power over wealth?  Sounds rather dwarfy...

For a more modern thought, one idea for a modding credit card of sort: Use something like Druid exp, as that skill isn't used by the game currently. Or perhaps Alchemist if one wants to know how rich a dwarf is v-g?

@Nilbert: Small note for the first section above: a dwarf can receive both happy and unhappy thoughts indeed - but being busy, doing work and creating nice things all make dwarf more focused and happier.

Though I suppose dfhack already includes a hook for job completion, so could perhaps just decrease dwarf happiness on every completed job, forcing the overseer to balance leisure with work for that dwarf.

However, stress stays around for 2 years iirc, while migrants and visitors are plentiful, giving an interesting viewpoint.

@DrTank09:

Can just ignore quality if you want when it comes to craft, or not split coin stacks. I.e. have 500 coins = 0,1.

Another interesting token might be blocks, as they're infinite with glass and clay and obsidian and wood, and also lack a quality level. Though I expect a dwarf would want royal rooms decorated with things they like rather than a stockpile full of blocks, coins or goblets , so there should be a fair possibility of using this to buy what they desire.

Thanks Fleeting Frames for the info!  I like the idea of feeling down with completing a task.  Will need to think on this a bit more.  I also thought about blocks, or rocks or clay, as they are pretty much infinite and are really low value.  Pennies of the dwarf world.  They don't stack well without a quantum stockpile, which I am not sure how one would manage more than one of those and a dump.  Goblets and mugs instead of crafts...  Hmmm...  German beer hall anyone?  I've never used the druid or alchemist skills (or DF Hack for that matter).

[Nilbert]

I'll apologise upfront because I haven't had time to read the entire thread.  Feel free to ignore me if I am ot or redundant.

Having said that, from my perspective, the biggest problem with modelling the economy without aids in the game is going to be accounting.  You'll spend your life doing data entry if you calculate everything by hand.  So, I would organise the economy around things that are already being accounted for in the game.  Pretty much that means book keeping and appraisal.

At the moment there are calculations for created wealth, imported wealth and exported wealth.  The created wealth is handily broken down.  So you can account for held/worn objects (essentially objects owned by dwarfs).  I might be tempted to issue stock for the rest of the wealth.  That would be fairly easy to do with a spreadsheet and only requires that you type in all the names once.  Then you can issue stock once a year, for instance, and keep a running total.  Nobles can be issued more stock than others.  You could then issue stock bonuses for creating an artifact, or saving the fortress from certain doom, etc.

I would not account for architecture or other things in the fortress.  Instead use it as a perk.  In other words, instead of rewarding a dwarf with stock, you can upgrade their living conditions.  Otherwise the book keeping is going to get out of hand.

Again, to keep things simple, I would not do any accounting until profit is realised.  Wealth inside the fortress is not realised wealth.  The goods are still being used for whatever purpose.  When you trade, you realise the wealth.  You can use the difference in the exported wealth to determine the actual realised wealth.  In reality, we always trade at a loss, so you could also factor that in if you want, but I'm not sure I would bother (though it would give a reason for having a good broker).

Finally, when you have calculated the realised wealth, you can pay a dividend based on the number of stocks that the dwarfs hold.  I'd pay something like 5%, but really the amount is arbitrary.  You can keep that owed money on the books, but I would be tempted to mint coins equal to the amount that you pay and keep it in a bank.  You can then RP dwarfs spending their money to get exclusive use of artifacts, or to upgrade their quarters, or to demand certain foods being stockpiled.

If you want to get super tricky, you can even track inheritance in the event of death -- with or without a tax.

Actually, this sounds like fun... I may have to try it...

This sounds fun too!  Micromanagement is an issue for sure, but then again, isn't DF all about micromanagement?  After all, I just finished building individualized gold tombs complete with statues commemorating great feats and memorial slabs for 45 dwarves...

From what you describe, it sounds like an 'Adventurers Corporation" from 17th-19th century England, France, and the Netherlands.  A group of merchant-adventurers would band together, pool funds, and establish a trading or production facility in a foreign location.  Each would have a share of the profits according to their investment and of course participation.  There were a number of very famous of these... East India Tea Company, Hudson Bay Company, Jamestown, Plymouth...

I'd have a bit of a different spin on it, but just my thoughts... what you propose sounds fun!

The always trading at a loss is an interesting point.  I think that is part of DF to reflect the merchant's grand ability at bargaining.  That said, as an economist, it is rather mercantilist thinking (aka, trade equates with one side winning and one side losing).  I like to think of it as the cost with transferring goods ("transaction cost" using economics jargon) going to a merchant (aka, it costs them 20% to 40% to move goods from one place to another and they need to add a margin for that).  Under that notion, trading is transferring some goods (aka, 1000 lead goblets) for something more useful (aka, 10 bags of gypsum powder) plus a cost for trading.  This totally ignores the concept of specialization, which is why trade is such a good thing, but I will offer an elf in sacrifice to the economics gods for forgiveness.  Therefore, trading actually means losing profit.  The value of exports minus value of imports equals transaction cost, which is a reduction in profit.  I guess this can make sense in that perhaps the DF has to order 'essential' goods from the mountainhome in order to survive.  In doing so, they have to pay a lot! 

Wealth then would be some grouping of the other reported numbers minus the initial wealth (what was brought with at embarking) and minus the transaction cost.  I agree architecture shouldn't count, nor probably furniture.  Non-portable and totally cant be easily buried in the backyard.  That leaves weapons, armor and garb, other objects, displayed, held/worn.  I have no idea what displayed is.  Held/worn is stuff being used to generate a profit.  Does weapons or armor/garb get double counted with held/worn?  If not, maybe one of those two could be used as the 'profit' good?  Instead of tobacco like Jamestown as the 'profit' good, the DF makes battleaxes?   As a result, profit is realized when the value of battleaxes exceeds transaction costs and initial investment...

One could totally have fun with shares too, especially with children.  Oldest gets inheritance while younger ones must be indentured servants or drafted into the military?  Hmmm... many, many possibilities...

[Fleeting Frames]

For stacking blocks, you could give each dwarf their own minecart qsp for it. Then, when it is time for payment, you make a stockpile for blocks and let it fill. Once it is filled, you make it take from links only with no links, and then make the qsp route take from the stockpile, then delete the link/stockpile once all blocks have been qsped.

Not really automatic though, I suppose. You could automate measuring if you store things in minecart instead of dumping straight out and use that to trip a pressure plate by weight or to move cart when X% full, for instance. The latter doesn't really have large degree of pay variance, but has the bonus that once you've set it up you only need to order things through manager to pay all the workers what they should receive, with no extra buildings outside the stops and minecarts - have a grace period for returning to start long enough that all monetary tokens are handed out by the time the carts are reset to start.

[DrTank09]

For stacking blocks, you could give each dwarf their own minecart qsp for it. Then, when it is time for payment, you make a stockpile for blocks and let it fill. Once it is filled, you make it take from links only with no links, and then make the qsp route take from the stockpile, then delete the link/stockpile once all blocks have been qsped.

Not really automatic though, I suppose. You could automate measuring if you store things in minecart instead of dumping straight out and use that to trip a pressure plate by weight or to move cart when X% full, for instance. The latter doesn't really have large degree of pay variance, but has the bonus that once you've set it up you only need to order things through manager to pay all the workers what they should receive, with no extra buildings outside the stops and minecarts - have a grace period for returning to start long enough that all monetary tokens are handed out by the time the carts are reset to start.

I was honestly thinking that a qsp might be the best method for those owning wealth.  In order to automate it, I'd make the qsp, minecart, and pay collection stockpile all at once but separate them using a forbidden door.  This might be an interesting mechanic for a strike system.  If you leave that stockpile all year long and they only get paid once a year, then all of the sudden when pay time comes and someone didn't get paid,  they may say that they won't work until they are paid their just dues.

Does anyone know if there is a way to split coins outside the depot?  Maybe through a danger room that we think of as a coin minter?

[Fleeting Frames]

Splitting stacks...You could do it as adventurer, or you could mod in reaction that splits coins, or a ranged weapon that shoots coins.

[Sanctume]

We had an experiment of a multi-player-ish dwarven economy in The City

The idea was to break down the entire embark 4x4 into 16 1x1 districts, separated by roads. 

Whatever unrevealed underground resources are unknown, and the info available initially are visible in the surface. 

So right at the start, you can tell where the lakes are (fish, food); trees (specific fruit trees, or lumber); dug hills (stones and ores) from the embark until some migrant waves.

The initial resources are finite when the players interested needed to choose:
citizens for their district,  and what they plan to provide, produce, or trade for the other districts.

It was a mess trying to communicate as we try to formulate rules for trading, offers, count offers.

It also became interesting when tools and equipment is scarce initially. 

2 picks were available.  Who wants a pick, and how much are they willing to pay for it.

[Fleeting Frames]

Glancing at it - interesting thread by TimelessBob, Sanctume. A daring attempt; I wouldn't dare to try something like that without some way to synchronize or copy-paste the districts (which would also help deal with FPS). Even fortplan + speed:0 dorfs wouldn't work too well for copying 20 weeks of playtime quickly.

Warmist's HTML'd DF via DFHack could be one way to look for to get multiple simultaneous players on a single embark - could be rather cool when combined with labor-manager/autolabor and DF together.

Ah, but I digress - in that situation, the value of pick would depend strongly on the availability of surface fire clay. Doesn't look like there was any present, so without a pick one was consigned to aboveground farming, socializing and training with wooden weapons, with small house built from the smattering of trees on 1x1 plot, for at least until caravan would arrive.

It'd have been more interesting if dwarves one chooses were also up for bartering and there was fire clay - in that case, one might be willing to accept renting instead of buying if they also get a legendary carpenter, for instance. As it was, district R paid 45% purchase discount for 3 years to hire a miner to mine 67 tiles in soil.

As for mid-developing player economies I'd imagine the value of leather, books, instruments and masterwork steel gear would be relatively higher in comparison to other goods than what is offered to caravan, and masterwork versus non-masterwork weapon values would be even more extreme. However, ultimately any fortress will be able to obtain what it needs on mass-producible goods, making the truly interesting trade items artifacts, really.

[DrTank09]

So I recently started looking into raws and stuff while trying to make my dwarves all male for an embark to make lineage easier to track and I got to thinking about a modified workshop called "Vault".

Basically the workshop would have three reactions.  "Take coins" with a sub menu for material and quantity up to 100, "split coins"- which is used to split stacks of coins so that they can be dispersed, and "take item"- with a specific menu so as to receive payment for things through material rather than currency.

Make two workshops, one inside a vault with a linked qsp for currency and another for items that isn't a qsp to make it fell like the size of the vault matters.  One vault is for incoming horded material, another is for outgoing payments linked to more stockpiles.

Another reaction could be "Make stacks" in order to reduce counting, but it isn't necessary.

Have all incoming and outgoing stockpiles linked to take from links only and activate or deactivate based on what payments are being done.  So long as the workshops are properly connected, specific items are all that will be shown in any 'd'etails menu.  I don't know if I'll be able to figure out how to make this, but it seems like a simple solution.

[DrTank09]

Mod is created, but this one seemed to kind of die off when people gave up on the idea of how the economy could work, so I moved it over to here http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162234.msg7320635#msg7320635