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[MrWiggles]

I started having a quick look at MUD toolkits online - I'd be half interested in starting one at some point, but until that point others might be interest in this:
http://www.evennia.com

I've had a mess around and it's very easy to use. Python is broadly the easiest language to get to grips with, and there's a lot of documentation and demos with it. Arx (one of the MUDS made using it) had about 90 players on when I looked which is pretty good going.

Evennia....

Its been in development for longer then ten years. And the (current) Dev for a long bit refused to make a game with it, citing it wasnt there yet. Coming from PennMush or Rhost, Evennia out of the box, is super barebones. I'm honestly surprise there is finally a game with it. I havent been on it yet. There been lots of games trying to be made, and to be fair most games fail in production as making a textbase game is much harder then it looks. But eventually it starts to become a red flag when there arent games for it. Less so now that there are some. 

[Shub-Nullgurath]

I've been thinking on it and I was seriously considering building a MUD (even if no one plays it, it'd be a REALLY good demonstration of my client-server infrastructure knowledge).

It'd probably be a god-game kind of thing where players take the role of demigods. You'd gain followers and the like by doing dynamically generated quests and through that gain experience. I can think of a lot of ways to expand this, too.

Comments?

[Retropunch]

Its been in development for longer then ten years. And the (current) Dev for a long bit refused to make a game with it, citing it wasnt there yet. Coming from PennMush or Rhost, Evennia out of the box, is super barebones. I'm honestly surprise there is finally a game with it. I havent been on it yet. There been lots of games trying to be made, and to be fair most games fail in production as making a textbase game is much harder then it looks. But eventually it starts to become a red flag when there arent games for it. Less so now that there are some.

Shame to hear that - it looked pretty good from a barebones setup which didn't make too many demands programming wise. I had thought it was a lot more stable/well established though.

Comments?

Two thoughts on that:
Firstly, I believe there's already a few MUDs that do similar to this, or allow for a similar play style. I've forgotten the names, but I know there was a pretty popular demi-god one a while back. Nothing wrong with having another one obviously, but I feel there are other ideas to explore. If you're into sci-fi, I know there's always been a lack of solid sci-fi settings that aren't star wars based.
 
Secondly, I'd start with a really simple concept with a few areas that you populate heavily. I'd suggest starting in the vein of current MMOs - central gathering areas with proc. gened dungeons off from that to explore. Allow for some solid co-op play and it'd definitely get some interest.

More than anything though, I'd make it extremely, extremely accessible to start with. Even go down the route of 'str/dex/int + roll for crits', and just keep it really, really simple. There's bucket loads of complex 'strike them with 3 pounds of pressure on the lower third of their spinal column whilst doing circular motions with your left hand' MUDs, and not so many that you can just jump in, loot, fight and RP when you get the urge.

Remember, you can always add in complex systems over the top, but it's difficult to take them out if they're a part of the foundation.

[Shub-Nullgurath]

Two thoughts on that:
Firstly, I believe there's already a few MUDs that do similar to this, or allow for a similar play style. I've forgotten the names, but I know there was a pretty popular demi-god one a while back. Nothing wrong with having another one obviously, but I feel there are other ideas to explore. If you're into sci-fi, I know there's always been a lack of solid sci-fi settings that aren't star wars based.
 
Secondly, I'd start with a really simple concept with a few areas that you populate heavily. I'd suggest starting in the vein of current MMOs - central gathering areas with proc. gened dungeons off from that to explore. Allow for some solid co-op play and it'd definitely get some interest.

More than anything though, I'd make it extremely, extremely accessible to start with. Even go down the route of 'str/dex/int + roll for crits', and just keep it really, really simple. There's bucket loads of complex 'strike them with 3 pounds of pressure on the lower third of their spinal column whilst doing circular motions with your left hand' MUDs, and not so many that you can just jump in, loot, fight and RP when you get the urge.

Remember, you can always add in complex systems over the top, but it's difficult to take them out if they're a part of the foundation.

I know the one you mean, but that had the problem you say later on: A ridiculously complex system that just shoves it in the player's face. It's what happens when developers just do whatever pushes them to the limit without thinking about how that will effect the player.

Instead, you'd start out with three sets of divine powers, one of which has to be some sort of weapon. So, if you took, say, throwing, lightning and transformation you'd basically be a mini-Zeus where your throwing ability's appearance is based off your lightning power. If you took hammer, lightning and strength as your powers instead, you'd be Thor.

I'm fleshing the idea out a bit. Still need writers, though, because I don't have the willpower to write endless descriptions for stuff. I'm a programmer, I solve stuff like this through automation.

There's definitely a few sci-fi MUDs that aren't Star Wars, it's just that the interest isn't there:

• Wayfar 1444
• Sindome
• Star Conquest
• Federation II

[Cthulhu]

God Wars 2 is a pretty fun one as far as demigods go, though I never really got to experience the combat with other players cause it was dead.

[ThtblovesDF]

There is a Firefly/Serenity Mud out there, too.

[Retropunch]

There is a Firefly/Serenity Mud out there, too.

Looks very interesting - one thing I can't work out though is if it's got a sort of multi-crew environment. Like, can I set off with a crew on a ship, each person taking on different tasks on board and exploring the 'verse, or is it pretty much a solo affair with some interaction. How well is that sort of thing modelled?

[beorn080]

Two thoughts on that:
Firstly, I believe there's already a few MUDs that do similar to this, or allow for a similar play style. I've forgotten the names, but I know there was a pretty popular demi-god one a while back. Nothing wrong with having another one obviously, but I feel there are other ideas to explore. If you're into sci-fi, I know there's always been a lack of solid sci-fi settings that aren't star wars based.
 
Secondly, I'd start with a really simple concept with a few areas that you populate heavily. I'd suggest starting in the vein of current MMOs - central gathering areas with proc. gened dungeons off from that to explore. Allow for some solid co-op play and it'd definitely get some interest.

More than anything though, I'd make it extremely, extremely accessible to start with. Even go down the route of 'str/dex/int + roll for crits', and just keep it really, really simple. There's bucket loads of complex 'strike them with 3 pounds of pressure on the lower third of their spinal column whilst doing circular motions with your left hand' MUDs, and not so many that you can just jump in, loot, fight and RP when you get the urge.

Remember, you can always add in complex systems over the top, but it's difficult to take them out if they're a part of the foundation.

I know the one you mean, but that had the problem you say later on: A ridiculously complex system that just shoves it in the player's face. It's what happens when developers just do whatever pushes them to the limit without thinking about how that will effect the player.

Instead, you'd start out with three sets of divine powers, one of which has to be some sort of weapon. So, if you took, say, throwing, lightning and transformation you'd basically be a mini-Zeus where your throwing ability's appearance is based off your lightning power. If you took hammer, lightning and strength as your powers instead, you'd be Thor.

I'm fleshing the idea out a bit. Still need writers, though, because I don't have the willpower to write endless descriptions for stuff. I'm a programmer, I solve stuff like this through automation.

There's definitely a few sci-fi MUDs that aren't Star Wars, it's just that the interest isn't there:

• Wayfar 1444
• Sindome
• Star Conquest
• Federation II

Sadly, Wayfar 1444 is now defunct, AFAIK.

[Yoink]

RPIs are the best kind of muds. I used to dig the Iron Realms games back when... well, when I first moved from hack-and-slash MUDs like Vampire Wars to try roleplaying enforced ones. They were pretty fun, but basically they're all about grinding and setting up countless triggers in your MUD client to have any chance in PVP.

With an RPI you have actual risk and reward (thanks to permadeath),  mostly excellent, easy-to-use commands and such, and of course some truly brilliant storylines when good players contribute. Characters wind up seeming very real and it's usually incredibly easy to find yourself truly in the thick of plotlines, or spark them yourself.

Sadly, I don't think there are really any active MUDs around any more apart from Armageddon, which I've never been able to get into for a variety of reasons. It's annoying, really- I've always enjoyed reading the forums and the occasional stories and anecdotes that bubble to the surface there, but I've never had a serious character myself.
The whole "Find out IC" stonewall everyone throws up probably doesn't help matters.


Shadows of Isildur was dope back in the day even by the time I finally discovered RPIs. Before that the first one I played was the alpha of Atonement, which blew me away-- but it still had nothing on the fun I had with SoI, especially after I started playing orcs. Oh man, those were the days. I remember so many all-night roleplaying sessions. That game was basically my life for a long time, haha. Somehow it inspired me to lose twenty kilos along the way, too!


If I had the coding knowledge (and wasn't a lazy fuck) I would love to use the old Atonement/Parallel codebase to create an RPI in some kind of Western setting. Seems like a goldmine of untapped potential, there. Those game's engine would be perfect for it in so many ways... hunting and scraping through dangerous badlands to survive, all that frontier living shit, crafting and of course the brutally unforgiving gunfights... that'd be amazing.


Sorry for the ramble. I just miss mudding, that's all.    
The only roleplaying experiences that can hope to compete with an RPI are things like SS13, forum games and... well, I guess certain tabletop games can match RPIs for the full package, with great roleplay potential and fun mechanics to match. But for that you need people, and then seriously roleplaying with people you know can be awkward!

[Retropunch]

The whole "Find out IC" stonewall everyone throws up probably doesn't help matters.

Yeah, I found that put me off a lot of MUDs. I remember one specific example where I asked about a certain spell everyone kept casting - got asked to Find Out IC, went into character, asked what was going on and then got a PM saying that my character wouldn't know to ask about it because the spell wouldn't make sense to me. Like. What. How do I even progress?! They were really friendly about it, it just ended up becoming such a drag to do anything.

That's why I feel a really simple MUD is best. Let the RPing take on the complexity, but the rest be simple.

[Starver]

Not everywhere is as close-lipped about such things.  At the risk of looking like I'm advertising my favourite again...

Everything you might want to know about Wizard spells in the Discworld MUD.
Everything you might want to know about Witching (different specialisation).
Priestly rituals, likewise.
Warrior stuff, for good measure.

Then there's thievery (a useful guild to join if you're not necessarily into just kill-grinding and of course the assassins (a bit more of a challenge), there's information on both of these out there as well.  Or just stay as an Adventurer (i.e. unaligned), long-term, for a totally different kind of challenge.

That's deliberately avoiding the official information, which is as comprehensive and up-to-date as you might like. But asking on the MUD's talker-channel(s) or perhaps even assimilated message boards should get you a friendly pointer as quickly as you like, with maybe a few in-jokes along the way, if someone happens to be in a funny mood...

[MrWiggles]

The whole "Find out IC" stonewall everyone throws up probably doesn't help matters.

Yeah, I found that put me off a lot of MUDs. I remember one specific example where I asked about a certain spell everyone kept casting - got asked to Find Out IC, went into character, asked what was going on and then got a PM saying that my character wouldn't know to ask about it because the spell wouldn't make sense to me. Like. What. How do I even progress?! They were really friendly about it, it just ended up becoming such a drag to do anything.

That's why I feel a really simple MUD is best. Let the RPing take on the complexity, but the rest be simple.

Mushes seem to do a good job with this. I tend to prefer mushes. On a dragonball Z mush, my character became a teacher. I taught folks, not just mechanical skills but the IC reasons behind the skills.

[Retropunch]

-snip-

Good to know! Thanks for the info, and I think MUDs are so niche that advertisement has basically the same effect as shouting into a dark pit. I'll definitely check it out, although I have to say Discworld isn't my favoured play environment - don't get me wrong, I LOVE THE BOOKS, but I haven't really enjoyed playing in the environment - mostly I just don't feel 'quirky' enough to RP it very well most of the time, and playing a straight character gets a bit thin when you've got all these crazy things going off.

Mushes seem to do a good job with this. I tend to prefer mushes. On a dragonball Z mush, my character became a teacher. I taught folks, not just mechanical skills but the IC reasons behind the skills.

From what I understand (and I never managed to work out exactly the distinction) MUSH'S tend to be light on dice roles/Single play RPGing right?

[MrWiggles]

Well there no hard distinction. In general, there isnt ant MMO like game play. There are no Mobs, there no grinding for loot, no dungeons ect. Its tends to be more social focus. And the role playing, tends to be less simulationist like you find on RPI muds. Things tend to be more consent based, including PVP, and PC death. The rp tends to more like like improvisationalist story telling. They can have a lack of coded systems and be entirely free form, or they can have some complex mechanical systems. Star Trek mu*s were mushes, and they had 3d space systems, SS13 like space ships, entire planets, and complex Faction systems with like ranks, positions and special clearances.   

The DBZ place I mention earlier, had a pretty complex combat system. Though unlike what you'd find typically in a mud, it was turn based and pose dependent. The combat prompts, said damage, and if you got hit ect. But you had to pose out your actions, and you taking hits, and interpetting getting fucked upped.

[Shub-Nullgurath]

Right, so, some quick concepts so far:

Players take the role of godlings (the shards of some long-forgotten god). They start out with a weapon skill (recommend to have a weapon skill, at least) and from there get some sort of buffing skill for that weapon and some sort of utility skill (possibly up three utility skills). Simple progression through the newbie area without overburdening the player too much with an explanation of more detailed systems along the way.

Weapon Skills: Throwing, Hammer, Sword, Axe, Fists, Sceptre, Staves, Oratory (not for newbies) etc.
Buffing Skills: Frost, Fire, Lightning, Water, Earth, Darkness, Light, Death, Undeath, Strength, Nature etc.
Utility Skills: Blood (possibly buffing), Forging, Armour, Fertility, Magic, Summoning etc.

Players then go out into the world and just start questing in NPC-controlled lands. Players don't really have any direct effect but removing mountains and watering fields and such causes them to gain worshippers. Players gain affinities for different civs and different races and either their character morphs appropriately or they can select from one of those races.

The main progression is gaining followers (essentially experience points) and using those to buy more skills and abilities from your domains. End goal is to gain the throne of Heaven (whereupon the game resets with that main player's name in the history of the game somehow) by fighting some of the other gods along the way.

I've got some other ideas but not much time to write them down.

Comments?