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Author Topic: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.  (Read 11934 times)

chaosfiend

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2016, 10:06:51 pm »

[quote author=Amostubal link=topic=161819.msg7298243#msg7298243 date=1482024622
I thought the point of kobolds was that you wasn't suppose to be able to use anvils and metals period, as they aren't suppose to be able to access metals at all.  the shovels were a wooden alternative to picks for use in digging in dirt only... The goal was to build above rock caves and wood hovels/shacks and use the abilities of kobolds to overrun you enemies with numbers not quality.
[/quote]

Kobolds have access to the Metal Cobalt, (as per their namesake), as well as simple Bonemold for Armors. Those are the only two 'metals' that they have access to as a race, since it was thematic. The Metalsmith is needed to work both of these materials. They know how to work metal in most mythologies, and have a close tie with metals, they simply cannot extract said metals from the earth.
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baldamundo

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2016, 04:47:18 pm »

A few hours in to an orc fort game, I got a huge FPS drop that persisted even while paused. None of the usual tricks seemed to help at all. Posted a thread with more details here since idk if this is a Masterwork issue specifically
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Amostubal

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2016, 09:42:11 pm »

@baldamundo - its virtually impossible to diagnose the problem without a game save to access, if you can load one up, I'll take a look around for anything buggy, check for a few things I have seen cause problems... I'll even shut off all the water if you want me to check it for leaks.  generally every time I've had fps issues.... its water falling multiple levels into open spaces or 100 pop with too much open space/circular routes to path...  but I'll even look for some other bugged stuff that people say causes them fps issues.  I got a couple of days down time.
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baldamundo

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2016, 06:39:26 am »

Would really appreciate that! Have uploaded it here https://www.dropbox.com/s/3p9isv8wod9efug/region1%20-%20Copy.rar?dl=0

Have now tried disabling temperature and weather, damming all water sources, locking everyone inside the fortress, using DFHack to clear the dead/missing unit list, and exterminating every single pet, animal, monster, visitor and citizen except for a single orc. Only managed to get 18FPS even after that, so I'm completely at a loss.

Even used the reveal cheat to explore the caverns and didn't look like they had any running water or many monsters.
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baldamundo

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2016, 07:34:28 am »

Okay, so retiring and unretiring fixed the FPS issue (now 150 FPS when paused, around 40FPS unpaused)...buuuuut...for some reason it treated it as if it was a reclamation, so now I have control of 7 new orcs while my old population are treated as an ambush (it says they're hostile but they don't seem to actually be).

I have backups from before the retiring, so any ideas how to avoid this? I could use DFHack to takeover the existing population, but I feel like that could set myself up for hella bugs further down the line.
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Amostubal

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2016, 10:06:56 am »

did you retire and actually select the fort in the reclamation list, or did you just drop a new embark on top of the old one?  If you do the former, well the pop there should just convert to you as long as you are the same civ set in the embark screen.  If you do the later.... well your considered a new group hostile to whatever is already living there.  also I prefer abandon and reclaim... put everything you want to keep inside of a room and seal it... then you can just find your sealed stockpile, otherwise it will be all spread out across the map randomly(don't ask me why, damn guys scatter everything when they leave it).

I'm downloading it now... I'll see whats going on.
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baldamundo

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2016, 10:34:05 am »

Turns out it was Embark Anywhere confusing things. Disabled that and it worked fine.
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Amostubal

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2016, 12:18:30 pm »

hey baldamundo..... I found your problem.... fixed your fps and I'm going to tell you how to fix it yourself so reload your copy and get ready to play fps 120+ map again....  heres the instructions: remove all the designations on your map....  you have the entire visible map set to be smoothed.  every level outside, inside, cavern is set.... just to do a remove all designation across the entire map from the highest level to the lowest level and fps jumps back up to 120+.

images that made me go oh shit:


that last one was an entire cavern layer as far as you could see set to smooth.... yet its unreachable... its a good idea to every 3 months or so of in game time just to wipe your designations off the entire map... especially if you have some areas that your just not ready to get to yet... and they have been designated for several months... just get rid of them.  what you had set up was a several 100k worth of jobs all draining away at memory resources attempting to find paths.  the unreachable locations will constantly be attempting to find valid paths (including climbing and jumping down paths that would kill the engravers).

Additional notes on your map:
1.  You have a road system running through cavern 1.  If trade caravans aren't showing up, it might be because they can't route through there.  they can also want to leave through there, if its visible...  visitors and megabeasts love to appear through underground road systems. - NOT a FPS issue, just FUN issue.
2.  you had soldier ants living in cavern 2 or 3(forget which...) something killed them all.  there's a pile of bodies and equipment sitting there. - NOT a FPS issue, could of been if the queen hadn't already died, they can mutiply rather fast on map, have seen them underground fighting undead soldier ants with numbers in the 60+.
3.  Crundle infestion in the lower caverns.  They never leave hunt in packs and kill a lot of small beasts until something strong shows up and kills them... they like to drown things... - NOT a FPS issue, unless you start getting more visitors on that level and the bodies,loot start stacking up in the water.
4.  Fire maidens in the magma layers... not really an issue, they will attack fire snakes(which are vermin) and there are a lot of fire snakes. - not much of a problem until you breach the magma layer.... maidens have been known to set everything on fire that they can shoot from an open magma vent.  Firesnakes like to roam around through walls and floors and can travel several squares from lava.... I've had stockpiles of coal set on fire by them.
5. underworld is infested with harvester spiders, vermin.  the place looks like a silk farmers haven.  half the underworld is covered in multiple layers of webs.  the other half has carp fiends raging around getting stuck in them.... a FUN issue for later... generally this is going to cause serious FPS when you break through hell as every time a demon paths through a web its going to increase calculations.
6. every adamantine spire (4 or 5 of them) is hollow and not very thick walled.  be careful.
7. your hell to magma layer has a 2x1 region on the north side where molten stone/magma extends farther down by 3 floors.  not enough to cause magma flooding of hell... I looked it over real well,  so not an FPS issue this map, not even a HFS issue...8(  I've had one that was bad enough that I triggered HFS by revealing magma sea, because of a leak.
8. you base is rather compact, and seems to path well, even though you have many circular routes.  primarily the location of stockpiles is near the workshops.  good design even for the size of the structure and map on a whole, I generally don't play 4x4 maps.
9. you have been playing with water, but you seem to be using good practices in how to manipulate it without much fps issue(your not making water cannons, or water falls from the surface through opened cavern roofs).


I have concerns about the number of farm plots.... any 1 of those plots is big enough to feed a 100 orcs, also they aren't the best size for fertilizing (3,7,11,15,19,23,etc) and you really have a lot of farm plots, they are going to cause a lot of lag once they are going.  I would suggest the outside plots be dug into the earth 1 level as that will get rid of the whole pebble/stone surface issue you have in some of those fields. 

This is mostly just a preference thing.  Once I have orcs going full steam, I don't mess with fields.  So 2 fields, 11 squares, 1 for food, 1 for bag material at start until I get raiders going full steam, then I just rob farms when my food supplies get low.  sell seeds to traders, wash repeat.  but everyone has their own style... the last time I had as many fields as you, I was running a human civ that made its money by selling fisherberry wine, in granite pots, made from purchased granite... long story, but 5 months of steady production and I had enough money to open up every guild, every guild extension, every shop stall, and had everyone guilded up... was thinking about trying it on dwarf fort soon.  I'm just wondering what the fields were going to be for, because of the number of fields there are?
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Amostubal

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2016, 03:40:50 pm »

well I played it some more you still are dropping into the low fps when unpaused, I shut off weather, temperature, and you jump 30 fps... probably the size of the map and the rains that seem constant... I think your on a hot map, since it seems that water is just evaporated from every pool, it doesn't seem like your intentionally draining them.

Maybe consolidating the stockpiles? quantum stockpiles? I run with very few stockpiles. generally my fort wherever it is will have a central stair with a stockpile on it, shops will radiate out from there, on that floor and above. I wish I had one available to open, I just cleaned out a bunch of dead files, waiting on the next MW release.  but I will try and draw it out:

Code: [Select]
sssss
sxxxs
sxzxs
sxTxs
sssss

s=stockpile 1 on floor
x=u/d stair stockpile 1 covers it also.
z= u/d stair stockpile 2(1x1 size) is on it.
T= carved or built track with trackstop and minecart on it.

the track stop dumps to the north on the center square, a route is setup with the trackstop as the only stop, the stop orders only have a take from stockpile 1 set and the items desired are set to everything.
stockpile 2 will have everything but refuse and corpses set, it will be allowed 0 bins/barrels.  stockpile 1 will have whatever I'm currently wanting to be stocked set, with 0 allowed bins/barrels.  the max stockpile orders is 23, with a max of 23 orders to fill the vehicle. 

generally I'll have ~3 quantum stockpiles, 1 central to the base, 1 through a diagonal gap from the kitchen for refuse/corpses, 1 beside the trade depot stocking what I want to sell so its close for retrieval .  workshops are never given more then a 3x3 stockpile set to take only from the central stockpile.  generally I don't even need these very often as all my workshops are directly beside the central stockpile within ~15 steps.  I never stockpile in barrels or bins. and I always avoid buying bins from the traders(just all the stuff in the bins).

generally FPS while running comes from Jobs rather they are inactive, or active.  Also workorders, although you seem to avoid that menu, instead opting for workflow.  workflow is great, but you have a lot of jobs resuming/suspending/resuming.  they are looking for units to path to them, they are generating tons of pathfinding calculations.  reduce your jobs to what you need now, there's no need to try and make everything all the time, its okay for units to take a day off.  otherwise your tavern is going to get full of people socializing and no one is going to want to go to work.

So I deleted it all... theres no need for 99% of the workflow orders,  I went around shop to shop and dumped all the jobs, you even had jobs set up in workflow, that are set to auto in the (o)rders->(w)orkshop orders menu.  in other words unnecessary, the game is going to do it anyway, when it is available.  jumped up unpaused fps to 75 from the original 20,(45 after turning off weather and temp)... 75 was with weather and temp back on.

I just missed looking at 2 floors in my initial review as I went straight to designations after searching the caverns/magma/hell for issues....

Your workshop floors are full of circular pathing.  It would of been better to have either an open room/tower(every shop beside a stockpile around a single stair) or a tree pathing (small rooms off a main corridor) so that there was only 1 option for travel.  the multiple stair sections increases the calculations as every time paths are recalculated they consider every possible path and check for blockage(units moving wheelbarrows/stones)... you also have too many duplicate shops and too many workflow repeat jobs to go into...again the number of stockpiles on the workshop floors is out of control, very few settings, very few restrictions.  They are producing hundreds of jobs trying to get materials that you don't have the haulers or mats available for.

final assessment.... Its still workable... but some serious changes are going to have to occur on those floors, or in 40 to 60 more immigrants your going to hit heavy FPS from all the pathfinding.

I can fix the FPS that was happening paused, but the internal design of those 2 floors cause as much fps as weather and temp changes cause fps.

you can do it like this:
Code: [Select]
wwww wwww wwww wwww wwww
wwww wwww wwww wwww wwww
wwww wwww wwww wwww wwww
wwww wwww wwww wwww wwww
    P    P    P    P    S
wwww wwww wwww wwww wwww
wwww wwww wwww wwww wwww
wwww wwww wwww wwww wwww
wwww wwww wwww wwww wwww

w=workshop room
P=empty space
S=stair

but once you start making all the empty space stairs or you make multiple rows, you increase the number of pinch points and circular path, cause
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urmane

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2016, 05:47:46 pm »

New megaproject: designate the entire map for smoothing, then engraving.
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baldamundo

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2016, 02:12:22 pm »

Thank you so much for this! A lot of this I had no idea about or would never have thought of.

The designation was mainly a lazy thing to keep my miners/engravers busy when I wasn't micromanaging them - had no idea it affected FPS so much. Lesson learned!

The farm plots...well I've never had any real idea their output, so I just figured do them max size and won't have to worry about running out of plants. Again had no idea they were something with a big frame cost.


Yeah, after looking into it, temperature and weather doesn't seem like it adds enough actual gameplay (besides freezing water, but obvs not applicable here), so those can definitely go if they're having that big a frame impact. Although it's not clear disabling them has done much on my computer...Ticked them off in the MDF launcher, and checked they're set to "NO" in d_init, but it's not clear it's made an impact.


Never bothered trying quantum stockpiles, honestly because it sounded complicated, confusing, and really fiddly. As well as being basically an exploit (muh immersion).


Similar to the designations, the workflow stuff is largely to avoid micromanagement - I like to be able to "set and forget". Although even with performance it's kind of a tradeoff - every time you open the order screen, workshop screen, or check the stock screen it pauses the game entirely (idk why nobody has tried making an equivalent of Dwarf Therapist for stocks and/or orders - would be a lifesaver). Having everything going at once also potentially saves me having to disable a bunch of e.g. hauling labours for artisans every time I need something made.

Do even suspended jobs have a performance cost? And presumably if I delete the workshop orders, but keep the workflow conditions, that should only affect performance on the occasion of Workflow's ticks to check stock?
What's the vanilla job management stuff like for performance by comparison? I've barely even touched it since I was used to workflow by the time it came out and it seeed way less user-friendly and not necessarily that useful.


With the workshop redesign, am I right in understanding that I basically want to make things as linear as possible and with few large open spaces? Would it help to start by deleting all the extra staircases and rework the workshop walls so each one only has a single entrance? I'd designed it thinking it would save time from the extra walking/shorter routes, but I guess that doesn't compare to the pathfinding cost.

The duplicate workshops again were to reduce micromanagement (as well as reduce production bottlenecks). Would it help to seal surplus capacity behind locked doors when not needed?

And with the stockpiles, are my options either delete most of the workshop floor stockpiles or spend ages thinking about and fiddling with the specific settings for them?


Again, thanks so much for taking the time to help me out here!


EDIT: And now I'm getting a consistent crash the instant the caravan and diplomat arrive. Unless anyone has any bright ideas, I may just have to take the above lessons on board for the next fort I try  :-\
EDIT2: Turns out it was something to do with the wagons. Making the depot inaccessible fixed the crash.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2016, 04:34:19 pm by baldamundo »
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Amostubal

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2016, 05:01:55 pm »

Glad to hear your on track.  So lets go through it.

temperature is necessary for freezing water, interaction between water and magma, evaporation of outdoor pools...  It also effects transfer of heat between 2 objects(put magma into a steel barrel, and try to move it with a wooden wheelbarrow.... the wheelbarrow will catch on fire, eventually).  generally if the area changes temps across a wide spread from season to season this can cause lag... If temp is off, there is several things that it stops, I prefer temp on.

weather causes the rain, clouds, and a plethora of other things to occur all having to do with weather.  Outside pools refill as it rains.  It can rain blood, mist clouds can move across the map, evil and poison clouds too.... turning off the weather stops all this from happening... it can cause a huge amount of FPS, especially if you have units moving inside to outside and back, as everything that goes outside in the rain gains dampness and often times they are emotionally affected.  Also it has a graphical component that can reduce the fps as it figures when and where to do raindrops and the change in water levels of pools.  I prefer it on, but when I hit pop 60+ I turn it off usually.

micromanagement sucks I know.... the problem with workflow is that it doesn't check for resources.... workorder does that but can't be set to an individual shop.  the other available option is stockflow, which is even more odd to play with as its based on the stockpile and can be accessed in the stockpile menus.  personally I never use stockflow.  I use workflow for some things and workorder for other things.  if you need something to run once a month... workorder.  If its a constantly in use item that resources are readily available all the time, then workflow.  If the job needs to know if there is regeants available that are limited or sparse, workorder.  Basically kitchen work and farmers workshop are better in workorder. along with complex things such as armor that may need mutiple resources.  I use workorder to automate orc raiding.  I wish you could save and load workorder settings so that you didn't have to rewrite them every new map.

in comparison workorder requires a lot more hands on approach but the simple fact you can set the conditions to include available regents make it far superior in many ways.  I use them both together.  some things like filling sandbags is always better for workflow, because its virtually imposible to get workorder to understand sand bag (lol, one of the biggest complaints, workorder doesn't understand difference between box and bag at all, at least in all my experiments with it).

suspended jobs only increase the amount of information in memory, its the unsuspending, resuspending that causes jobs to increase.  workflow ticks for jobs not set at shops wont increase FPS as they are handled in a the dfhack program itself.


The primary thing is to reduce routes, the game constantly builds path tables and the more equal distant paths to reach same destination, causes more fps as it has to decide which route to use for each unit.  Its hard to explain, but as units move from point a to b the game first designs a path to take from a to b, usually the shortest route, or in the case of multiple equal distant routes it randomly picks one.  Then every frame it checks to see if the unit has ran into anything, is it blocked, should it change course, etc.  if there is an obstruction (say another unit) it will see if there is another route, and will send the unit that way.  if there isn't another route, it will either stop the unit until it can get by, or the unit will try to move past, causing one of the units to dodge, usually with one unit just moving over the top of the other and on their way they go(of course the fun times is a dodge that sends one off a cliff edge for you to later find his corpse in the bottom of a river).  this is why hallways should be at least 2 to 3 wide, so that they can just reroute around each other and keep going.... ever watch the guys moving goods to a trade depot or building a roof, when there's only a wall edge to walk on you can actually see this happening, as the number of units with similar routes increase(its also when I lost poor dunderhead as he decided to dodge to the outside instead inside from a wall edge +13z from the ground....).  now then so you have all these guys going to these workshops after they are done they have to exit through one of 4 equidistant doors, along 4 equidistant paths to reach 4 identical stockpiles to return along 4 equidistant paths to reach the same workshop to do the next job.  it has to make a call about which path to take, and another if its blocked etc....

If your going to be circular make 1 route preferable to the other.  You can string say a stockpile A-> workshop A-> stockpile B-> workshop B-> ..... workhop F-> to start.  Or you could build workshops that one side enters into say the main fort where housing, dining, temple, tavern is (or a main hall leading to this). The secondary exit is a stair to the stockpile area that is attached to a main hall that exits to where Trade Depot, exterior, paths to mines are.  This way there is still circular paths but only one path that is preferred for the workshop to stockpile. 

I've even done villages for like kobolds and humans where a shop has a front entrance with a stockpile under, above, around or beside it and no other exit.

Providing shorter routes, does not require multiple routes, that's the key.  open spaces aren't bad as long as there isn't too many routes into or out of the space, a 25x25 workfloor so you can run lava under it for furnace operations isn't bad as long as there is only 2~4 exits from the 25x25 space, each exit needs to have its own destination, not a loop back to the same destinations.  that's what causes the fps.

When I'm going for authentic, I only make stockpiles for what is needed.  If I want to make granite bricks, I make a stockpile for granite stone only usually around the shop,  I try to limit its size to 9-16 squares.  If I change my mind and want diorite tables, well change the stockpile wants.  I've also ran a group of four shops on 1 floor with a stair down to 4 3x3 stockpiles with each one a different desired material.  It reduces the crap cluttering the stockpiles, and it keeps only what I can operate on right now near the shop.  tie the stockpiles to the shop( I know many hate doing this ).  Also stop stockpiling that which doesn't need a stockpile.  Things you build into place are better left unstockpiled, such as furniture, trap components, mechanisms, bars, blocks, ammo, coins.  If there ends up too much stuff in a shop it will slow the production down... which is a good thing, because if your not using the stuff then you don't need to be building it faster.  Weapons, Armor, Tools, stepladders, mugs, etc things your characters walk around with and then drop where they are standing should have a stockpile... There's nothing like hearing that an artifact sword was dropped after the last battle, and some kobold, gnoll, kea picked it up and ran off with it.  the only time I use furniture stockpiles is when I'm stockpiling sand bags, and when I'm moving the wagon gear at a new embark to get that anvil inside before a rhesus monkey steals it...damn monkeys.

the reason stockpiles suck fps.  if there is an empty square, the game will seek items to TSK to put in the slot.  If you make a 5x5 stockpile its going to TSK 25 items to move asap to that stockpile.   each TSK is a job which is going to need a unit, you have 20 haulers, they are tested to see which is ready to work, then they go and do the work, they clutter the paths as they move that obsidian boulder from the mines to your stockpile.  When I looked through your jobs you had 6 pages of haul item to stockpiles, approximately 240, inactive, looking for a unit.  Every time a unit is free the game has to make a call on whether that unit can/will do any of those tasks in the job list.  Each additional job adds one more routine to be run every tick looking for someone to do it.  this is why sometimes nothing you want gets done, all the units are busy trying to do other jobs.  multiply this a few hundred times, and stockpiles can add huge fps.... me I'd rather leave it all at the workshops, and on the ground where its found and send the dwarf that makes the item to go get it... saves having people hauling all together and keeps them available for actual work such as harvesting or moving refuse and food to stockpiles, which are 2 things you must accomplish fast to keep miasma and food waste issues down.

The only things I use minecarts for is to quantum stockpile, move large amounts of stone from a deep quarry to a fortress near the surface, and to move liquids(which MW has too many great ways to accomplish this so I don't use it in MW).  The first one I understand you not liking, the second one, well its a hassle but if all of stone X you want is at say z -56 from your base well a 2 point route from the pickup point to the trackstop that dumps it is nice, setup a 3x3 stone stockpile set to the stone you want, lay down a spiral track and have a unit guide it from quarry to dump and push it so it spirals back to the pickup...  the main thing is to avoid over usage of stockpiles and utilize them for only what you need to be stocked.  Its okay to leave stuff where it sits until you need it. 

duplicate workshops doesn't matter a whole lot, if you really need the things they are making.... I usually only have 1 to 2 of any workshop as I don't have a serious need for all the stuff.

stockpile settings should be intuitive, designed once, and good forever, or until you can no longer find the material to fill that stockpile..... I think that's everything you asked about.
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Feygan

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2017, 09:15:04 am »

Does this update require a new game? For some reason my current save will not show up any of the new decoration options in the workshop menu.
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Amostubal

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2017, 09:23:26 am »

yes.  any additions or deletions to the raw files requires a new world generation.
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Brutaka001

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Re: Update 1.23 - Decorations and extended words/language files.
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2017, 08:36:51 pm »

I'm having an issue with the new Tileset, its causing a graphical glitch that turns all text to colored blocks when trying to start up a new game on a new genned realm. Glitch doesn't happen with any other tileset, and happens no matter what font is used.

I am having the same problems with this as well. I haven't seen anyone address this yet in the post so I thought i'd post pics of it in stages. The following pictures use Obsidian Soul (16x16) Tileset, print mode as TWBT (also tried STANDARD), color as Phoebus, and font as Default.

Main menu:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
In process of loading Object Files:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
World Gen greeting after files are loaded:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
World Gen option screen:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Main menu after exiting World Gen:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This has been tried with EVERY tileset available in the download, all print mode types, tried with TrueType on and off, every color and every font. Nothing has worked so far. Sry I can't upload a world save to be inspected but as you can tell, I can't even generate a world effectively. This is straight after unziping the current download without edits or anything. Was going to include BoltGun's Succubus patch, but wanted to make sure everything was working fine first. Good thing I checked lol.
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