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[Liquefied Spleens]

Update delayed AGAIN.
Something that should have lasted until 21 ended up taking 'till midnight. I seriously just don't have the time to type out the Two Tower Tribulations of Tittering Twits right now.

[Devastator]

Assault Slowly

It's got a flanking maneuver, sounds good to me.

(Spider babies are physical.)

(We already have minions, anyway, ones that we can change through magic.  I don't know why spider babies are better than zombies, especially since we can get spider-zombies if we need spiders.  And other stuff, too.  Just seems redundant, and spider-babies actually makes us weaker, due to not having usable poison.  I think pursuing it is because of the sunk cost fallacy, and three level ups in physical upgrades or magical ones would be better.  Or even just one.

Plus, well, if we don't take the third level of it, I'm betting it'll turn up again as injectable magic healing stuff, should we learn healing magic.)

[RAM]

Ugh, tell me about it, but we did get it, and now that we have it... Well, I think it would be good, I mean, the total cost is the sum of the actions, and if the end result is worth the price minus the already expended value then the sunk cost is not a fallacy. Of course, we don't actually know if there is anything good at the other end, but... Well, the sunk cost fallacy is a wreally difficult one, you do have to factor in the offset cost into your evaluation of the current prospects. Yes, it is just the current prospects that matter, but if the sunk costs actually amounted to some progress, then that option is now cheaper by that progress. Sunk cost fallacy is technically a real thing, but it is way too difficult to apply for it to be used casually...

As for redundancy, well, it is, that is why I was against it in the first place, but it is not completely so. There is the matter of a unit cap, the drain on our magic, the availability of corpses, and the limits of undead. I would have rathered something else at the outset, but we should be close to it now and it should be a competent swarm ability and a great intimidator. And then there is the question of what influence Queen would have on it. Or whether Yendis will use it as a means of reincarnation. Or whether they come out wrong if they are exposed to corrupting energies... And then there is the chance to hopelessly warp Syndey's view of motherhood.

[Devastator]

As for the availability of corpses, we have to kill something with the baby spiders to get them.  Which implies that we have a corpse to begin with, that we can raise.  But nah, Queen would do a lot more with more physical upgrades, and we had a unit cap with living spider minions as well, when we took out that giant spider queen.

I really do think it's simply redundant.  We can buff and improve our undead, they can stick with us for a long time, and living minions are capped as well as undead are.  Living spiders are less intimidating than undead ones, and less intimidating than we ourselves are, especially if we picked a couple more abilities that way.

I just don't see the upside over having undead minions.  We can recruit living creatures.  For expendable creatures the undead are more than acceptable.  The sunk costs are just that, sunk, and we should ignore them until something more beneficial than an ability we already have comes available.

[RAM]

The living minions are on a different cap than the dead ones, and the spawn are likely on a unique cap of their own, likely with time being the only factor. It is possible that a relatively large number of spiders can emerge from a relatively small undead corpse, unless there is some impediment to that, which is admittedly plausible, but otherwise corpses are very portable and can be kept on hand, and the poison might act as a multiplier to that, along with its independent use. And I suspect that I have almost no uncanny valley, but speculation suggests that spider zombies are a great deal less intimidating then having a horde of spiders erupt from someone while they are still alive and then proceed to attack everything nearby at their queen's command...

And I really must reiterate that I feel the sunk cost fallacy to be something that doesn't work as a name. It just isn't viable without a full description, at which point the name is pointless. Yes, you should ignore prior investments when determining the value of current options, but there is almost always far more to it than that. There is, in this instance, the very real factor of satisfaction. The prospect exists of the spiderlings further metamorphosing which would exist for most other options but as a completely new ability it would be comparatively dynamic. It is more of a broadening of skills than a straight power increase, and it is a horde ability when we already have a hoard, but I honestly believe it to be more valuable than any one other option, likely two, and if the existing expenditure has served to put it in reach then it is now a better investment than the other options.

But this isn't really important. The sunk cost fallacy is unfortunately real despite its awkwardness in application as a term, and will make the decision, because people will feel better about making somethign of their sunk costs, and as entertainment, feeling better is actually the point, even if fictional characters get a raw deal out of it.

[Devastator]

We aren't at the cap of undead minions.  We haven't ever been at the cap of undead minions.  Right now we have one vermin, and we haven't made any undead minions for many turns, nor have we improved them.

We don't need more minion making abilities because we don't use the ones that we already have.

I feel that the reason why making minions had your support isn't related to the sunk cost fallacy, although that is probably a contributing factor.  I feel that the reasons you supported it is that it's passive.  Emotionally, what I think you've supported isn't any one thing, but abilities that do not encourage action by the main character.  Abilities that don't contribute to confrontations, actions, or quests.  Abilities that leave Sydney unable to act, and forced in the position of doing nothing.  This goes back all the way to the beginning of the game, and many other situations such as taking the job of being a Test Subject, which is a position where one does nothing but react.  Other examples are things like Oral Fixtation and Draining Limbs, which looked more passive than it actually was.

Emotionally I hate being forced into passivity, and strongly oppose concepts such as minion making or endless conversation because it isn't doing anything, it's simply using others.  I want to play as the character, not as this minion or that minion, while the character spends her time on a chair.

In short, I disagree with the passive playstyle, and don't want to see Sydney forced into a chair by taking endless abilities that she does not, and will not use, like her existing necromancy.  If you want to prove to me that you can use minion making abilities in a productive and active manner, do so with the ones she already has, and then I'll happily support more of the same.

[omada]

changing the venom back to being a venomright now will not be advantageous, yes, we lost some lovely mutations, but change it now and it will throw everything on garbage

The spiders are gonna act as poison at least

they are born in the living flesh of the victim and will devour them inside while sydney can be defensive to not take more hits or use the chance to kill the creature (she already has a proficiency on using her sting by her board and sword fightstyle)
plus they will be an extra fountain of usable body parts for necromancy

plus, maybe these venom is more usefull than it sounds and might get some extra nice mutations I don't know, then we get something nice, I liked the idea of choosing skills that looks that will interfere more with the history

[Devastator]

I'm not saying to make it venom.  I'm saying to take some other power that would be beneficial.  There probably will be something better than minions available later if we don't take them now.  We don't even use the minions we have now.

[Liquefied Spleens]

Take it at your own pace! I'll try to get up there!
Everybody agrees, and the shield-bearers take up their positions to defend the rest. The arrows are sporadic enough that defending a larger group isn't much of an issue. Your very own witch-hunter is suppressing the thralls, besides, so the approach goes without a hitch, mostly. Although things are going pretty slow...
You reach the walls first, using your speed and shield. You end up not even blocking a single bolt, but the rest aren't quite so lucky. More and more bolts begin flying, and it doesn't take long before you hear a scream. You're already halfway up the tower, however, so you can't turn to look. You can't even hurry up, considering wallclimbing isn't exactly something you can cut corners on. Not enough legs against the walls,and you're in some serious trouble. Eventually, you reach the top, shield first in case that crossbowman is still here. When nothing comes, you peek past the shield.
The thrall seems to have bled out. That arrow must have hit the femoral artery. If he had any sense, he would have kept the weight off, but two inaccurate bolts were worth more than his life, it seems. Still, that leaves you in a good position to start flanking. There are simple stairs here, with railings along the sides. You head down to the first stop, a small straight bit of floor before the stairs continue. It wouldn't be of note if it wasn't for the thrall still firing bolts through the peephole. As silently as you can get, you get up to him and use the vampire's blade against the thrall. The blade is quite sharp, and it takes no more than a single chop to decapitate the thrall outright. The body slumps against the wall, twitching a little more as the thrall's head looks around in a daze. In that last second of consciousness, you kick it down.

That proved to be a little bit of a mistake, though. The thump of the head made two other thralls notice you right away, and you get to block a bolt for your trouble. You rush forward, but end up blocked by a large eastern guy with a scourge. Nails and glass forced inside of a simple leather whip, this guy was somebody who wanted to hurt people more than he wanted to kill them.
He gets in a mean slash to your wrist, which would be a problem if you weren't a little bit armored up naturally. You actually pull the scourge from his hand with a good twist, and stab your blade inside of his neck. Into the shoulder and out the back, to be precise. Your new sword's actually a little more effective than you expected it to be. You improvise quickly, considering the guy behind scourge-boy is almost finished on reloading his crossbow. You punch him in the face, and a soft crack that you feel more than you hear confirms you just broke his nose. He stumbles back, and you uncurl the scourge from your hand (wincing a little bit from the feeling of carapace scraping against it) and choke him out with it. Considering the sharp bits, it'd be more accurate that you grind away at his neck until his stopped moving. With that out of the way, you pull out the sword from the big guy, wishing you had legs that allow you to push or kick the corpse away. Your arms will have to do, biceps bulging as you grunt in effort. It's stuck in there deep.
Finally, it flies out, leaving a trail of blood and a small bit of bone.

You hear some fresh yelling from downstairs, most of it triumphant. You guess that the rest made it through the door. Some more sounds of fighting are heard, and the next floor has the two thralls distracted. Once again, it seems to be one ranged and one melee. This one is wielding a spiked mace, a bit less likely to be ineffective when it hits you. Fortunately, as they are currently turned to the other direction, you can kill the maceman with no trouble. A quick thrust through the windpipe, and a twist later you and perform a downward slash on the crossbowman. He drops his weapon, and you take the time to finish him off with a throat slash as he falls backwards. He would have bled out anyway, but it's best not to leave loose ends. It doesn't take much longer before you reach the fighting downstairs. After those last two the rest was already downstairs. It doesn't take long before they're all slaughtered. The thralls just aren't good combatants, all in all. Sadly, you have to note that there isn't a drop of oil around here, apart from the lanterns you saw. The lanterns do CONFIRM the presence of the oil, at least, but it has to be in the other tower...
Or even somewhere else.
Let's hope not.

Of course, things aren't exactly perfect. After everything has been taken care of, the rest of the crew is taking care of a fallen member of the group. Eveline took a bad hit during the approach, in hindsight because the group allowed them the crossbows to take aim. The bolt is still in the wound, but she's nearly lost consciousness!
In the meantime, you hear a small explosion outside. As you start taking care of Eveline (mostly keeping her calm as Sucy begins to prepare for surgery.), your witch-hunter comes in the door.
They fired off a flare. If you want that second tower, we need to move NOW.

Chew him out.
If he didn't fire that arrow like a chump, we could have taken this quietly!

Keep taking care of Eveline.
Let's make sure she doesn't bleed out. The tower can wait.

Assault
While some people are left behind to get her stable, you and some others can attack. You should leave some guards behind, however, wouldn't want more injuries than we already have.

Flee
You'll have to come back later. The tower's been cleared, at least. Less thralls is always a plus. You can take Eveline on your back, and possibly even Sucy for some on-the-go surgery.

Other.

Map

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Basic Stats

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Level: 10
HP: 30/30
Mana: 53/53
Stress: 10/61
Thirst: Sated

Items and equipment

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Equipment:
Carapaced leather armor
Vampire's Blade
Gardener's Shield
Bolas(x4)
Handmade Bola

Items:
Spare Clothing (x2)
First Tome of Eternal Darkness
Blood Vials (x7)
Poisonbox
Journal
Spellbook
Cookbook


Stashed away:
Spare clothing (x13)
Fancy clothing

Skills and spells

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Magic:
Resurrect vermin: Allows you to resurrect very small creatures such as rats(invests 2 of your max mana) (no mana cost)
Resurrect average beast: Allows you to resurrect creatures such as dogs, cats and other similar-sized creatures.(invests 7 mana) (no mana cost)
Resurrect Humanoid: Allows you to resurrect humanoid creatures. (Invests 10 mana) (Costs 15 mana)
Reshape minion plus!: Allows you to majorly change the appearance of your resurrected minions.
Minion Vision: Allows you to see what a minion sees. The minion must have eyes.
Animate Piece: Allows you to animate just a piece of dead tissue. It requires your constant attention, and cannot act independently. (Drains 1 mana per three seconds)
Graft: Allows you to use dead tissue as a replacement limb. Requires a lot of mana. (2 per second) (average limb takes around 20 seconds to properly graft)
Gather Soul: Allows you to make a soul visible. You could try putting it in a flame of some sort to keep it around. (10 mana)
Soul battery: Allows you to use a soul-infused flame as a small mana-boost. This snuffs it out, however
Undead flashbang: Allows you to blow up a minion for a flash-bang effect. (10 mana)
Stitch: allows you to close a wound and stop bleeding as fast as you can stitch. Costs very little mana, but requires something to stitch with.
Siphoning Cloud: Breathe out a cloud that drains the life from victims and gives it to you. Adds a LOT to intimidation (5 mana)
Smoke Cloud: Breathe out harmless but thick smoke. (2 mana)
Deathbolt: A bolt that hurts the body's connection with it's soul. Causes minor wounds to appear over the body as it attempts to compensate (2 mana)
Doombolt: A more powerful version of the above (5 Mana)

Familiar
Tiny Skeletal Dragon (a little toasted)

Skills:
Poison Stinger (leaves a sack inside the body, which pops. Makes it easier to "defuse")
Crossbow usage: Novice
Oral Fixation: Can cast spells spells from the mouth.
Draining Limbs: Can drain blood using pedipalps.
Major experience in blocking and swords.
Climber
Crafty: Bolas
Cooking skill: Excellent
Corpse Cutting: Quite Decent.
Animal handling: inexperienced.
Necromantic knowledge
Soul Sniffer

Small note about the baby-spiders. There is barely a cap, and they are autonomous. Not to mention, this will make your injections far more lethal by default, chestburster style.
You'll have to 3 level-ups on this, I'm going to make it worth that.

[Devastator]

Assault, but raise two corpses to go in first.  No sense in letting up, the attack hasn't culminated yet.

[crazyabe]

Keep taking care of Eveline.

[RAM]

Eveline is important, very important, but can we do anything to help? Yes! Stick with Eveline long enough to use Stitch on her wound, unless someone has a problem with that as our skill exceeds our knowledge on this front. But we are used to quick stitches, and closing the wound is what matters for the spell, the rest can be better handled by others. If we can, we ought to press the attack. We shouldn't leave the alchemists along, we can leave Meandra and Yunikki here? We'll tear that other tower apart by ourselves if we have to. We have the corpses of their former compatriots, whatever use a thrall with the consistency of pudding is, can we just leave the flesh behind? Bah, whatever is quickest. We put in all this effort for Eveline's sake and now they dare to hurt her!

...

We WILL find a way to get angry over this. Ask queen for advice, she still seems to feel things.

[Devastator]

Eveline is important, but there are others who can help her.  There are no others who can take the second tower.  Staying with her is letting the attack fail.

[RAM]

...
We are surrounded by combatants, some of whom can claim to be tough and have a shield. Climbing is a big deal, but not so much of one considering that the others managed to break through the front door last time. One of our healers is down, the other seems to specialise in other fields of alchemy, with healing just being because they are into biology and healing is, like, the most obvious thing for alchemy, I mean, you can always find people looking for a healer, so it pays the rent, the personal applications are obvious, it is a good way to make friends, it has so very much research put into it so the recipes are bog standard common... but more to the point she doesn't really have any magic. The archer might be capable of something, but we don't know them that well yet, and they are by far our best ranged asset while we are merely one of many. We are the only person we know of who can just tell a wound to close, and it will promptly do so. Considering that Eveline's injury consists of "there is a small but important hole that shouldn't be there, and we have exactly the spell to fix that, well... There are others who can attack the tower(though we really ought to wait just five minutes to stabilise Eveline and sort out some undead first and then attack as a coordinated group) but there is nobody else who can just stitch an injury closed and have it promptly seal itself because magic said so.

[Devastator]

It's a crossbow bolt.  Does it need to be stiched shut now?  If it is so non-serious to be cured by our stich spell, we don't need to cast it now anyway, she'll be fine.  Taking the tower before they get reinforcements is a now thing, the longer they've been alerted the harder it will be to take the tower, and the more important our abilities will be.  This tower may not have even been barricaded properly.  The next one will be, and the assault force will be down several people, including the single best fighter.  Expecting it to succeed is much less likely than expecting someone with a serious but non-critical wound to live out an hour while recieving medical assistance.

I'm not saying it can't work, but you don't stop in the middle of an assault.  That's how assaults fail.

If you're concerned on a humanitarian level, there are many people involved in the assault, and Eveline is one person, wounded but not critically.  The lack of our presence will kill several others.