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Author Topic: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)  (Read 3074 times)

Immahnoob

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How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« on: November 28, 2016, 04:46:21 am »

So, I'm a completely new player to DF. I honestly want to get to learn first and experience things before I start a proper fortress. That's why I now use DFHack prospect all for the purpose of finding iron (I never had any luck in finding any sedimentary layers until now, and I'm at my 6-7th fortress). In the end, I found one with some limonite.

The issue is, I can't actually read the Z levels properly because they're skewed. I've looked up a guide on DFHack and it clearly shows on certain videos that their Z levels start at 0, mine start at 100-101 (so it's probably 0-1+, still not sure) and my Limonite is between 88 and 92. Do note that I'm on medium elevation.
My other issue is how, for example, I'm designating for mining purposes the -8th Z level and it sometimes suddenly changes to the -10th Z level, which confuses me even further.
Which is why I'm curious on how height works in Dwarf Fortress, is everything as wide as possible in a single tile and a single tile high?

Oh and, is there a way to increase Siege occurrences? On my 1st fortress I got my first siege after 4 years and it was 7 goblins at about 450k or so wealth, and I wasn't that far from them. I actually got a Giant on some other Fortress and no siege after about 3 years (900k wealth, 500k when Giant appeared).
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Bumber

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2016, 05:45:09 am »

There are two separate indicators for z-level. The number at the top right is distance to surface, which can change with XY coordinate. The number at the bottom left is the actual z-level you're on.

You can't increase siege occurrence. It was overhauled such that they have to travel the world map, which means you'll have to wait for them to conquer other sites to begin targeting you more often. It's possible they'll be attracted to artifacts in the next update.
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Immahnoob

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2016, 05:53:39 am »

I never noticed that bottom left number. Thanks.

That's pretty disappointing. There's nothing I met that was particularly challenging in DF, with all those stories about all those fun occurrences, I was thinking that I might get something thrown at me that could ruin my fortresses.
It's actually annoying that when I don't have iron, goblins sieges don't appear and I can't get their stuff.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2016, 08:31:16 am »

If you look at the fora you'll find lots of complaints about lack of sieges. The key to getting sieges, in my experience, is to make sure your embark is the closest target of a Dark Tower (goblin main site) and no crummy Dark Pits (minor goblin sites) are closer. In addition, you should check that the sites are actually controlled by a goblin civ (they can be conquered by others). I'd follow that up with looking at exported Legends Mode info to ensure that site actually has a healthy goblin population. Also note that goblins don't attack you before your population reaches 80, unless the corresponding parameters are changed. Black Towers (necros) don't care about population, but they're small (rarely 100 strong) and have a range of only 10. It is a bit of a challenge if they decide to visit during the first summer.

The claim that DF is insanely difficult is, in my view, a harmful myth. It's big and complex, but unless you suffer a major case of bad luck you should have no problems playing it safe (which is a reason a lot of players set up their own restrictions, such as not using traps).
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Immahnoob

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2016, 10:42:11 am »

If you look at the fora you'll find lots of complaints about lack of sieges. The key to getting sieges, in my experience, is to make sure your embark is the closest target of a Dark Tower (goblin main site) and no crummy Dark Pits (minor goblin sites) are closer. In addition, you should check that the sites are actually controlled by a goblin civ (they can be conquered by others). I'd follow that up with looking at exported Legends Mode info to ensure that site actually has a healthy goblin population. Also note that goblins don't attack you before your population reaches 80, unless the corresponding parameters are changed. Black Towers (necros) don't care about population, but they're small (rarely 100 strong) and have a range of only 10. It is a bit of a challenge if they decide to visit during the first summer.

The claim that DF is insanely difficult is, in my view, a harmful myth. It's big and complex, but unless you suffer a major case of bad luck you should have no problems playing it safe (which is a reason a lot of players set up their own restrictions, such as not using traps).
Well, I hate tedium. And DF is tedious, all of it is. The lack of a proper UI, the lack of properly implemented commands, etc (manager still needs work, stockpiles/workshops still need work, etc).
But you're right, it's not hard per say if you'd have a guide, but otherwise it's hard because of a lack of a tutorial, the UI (a lack of mouse support is... Damning) and the sometimes needless micromanagement (besides bugs).
With all that said, I've enjoyed my time playing it, but it took me a very long time to get over these issues, I'm a new player as in, it's my first time in which I properly take the game up and play it without stopping midway out of sheer annoyance. This is to answer the last bit of the post (I'm agreeing with you on the matter of difficulty). What gave me the motivation to go on is exactly those moments of !FUN! as the community calls them, and I'm sure I'll get some later on (I still haven't got over 5 years in a fortress, that's because the computer I'm currently on lags and DF crashes and corrupts my saves), but instead of impossible difficulty, I was more talking about just epic moments, difficult or not. 

Although, I believe that these difficult moments happened more often in older versions, or am I wrong? Isn't this 80 pop requirement and the need for armies to walk on the world map only something that happened recently? Are the newer versions made to be easier, or is it just me?
EDIT: I actually am curious, you guys seem to be playing for a very long time already, how long does it take you to start a metal industry and overall, what are the industries that you usually pick up (e.g. I know it's on a case to case basis depending on what you have on the map, but I'm sure you have preferences). I tend to do everything that I can possibly do.
And now that I mentioned the manager, is there any way to do something about bone or wood related products (e.g. I want bone bolts and wood bolts, but I can't pick simply WOOD and BONE as material options in the manager) and do you have any tips for the manager to go smoother than usual? Also, how much food and drink do you guys stockpile usually?

EDIT2: Are there any plans on changing food/drink in some way that we don't end up with stockpiles of infinite food and drink? Where can I see what changes we'll have in the future (I cant see anything in the patreon)?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 11:16:01 am by Immahnoob »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2016, 01:36:03 pm »

Well, if you doesn't have a high tedium threshold DF might not be for you.

I've only played for a bit over two years, and world activation happened about when I started. Old timers' accounts indicate it was harder in the past.
I generally set the siege parameters to a pop of 20 rather than 80, as I play dead civs, and it takes decades to reach a pop of 80 (I've done that once).

I try to play in metal poor worlds where my embark is dependent on goblinite for metal (apart from a small amount bought from caravans for mood purposes only). However, most of the time I let the magma in to my magma workshop power tunnel by the end of the first year, unless the aquifer is unusually deep.

I don't use the manager, as I've failed to find a single thing it will do better than old fashioned orders directly on the workshops. Every time I've tried to use the manager it failed because either it lacks the required options (like production of dwarf sized clothes regulated by the availability of dwarf sized masterworks clothes), or incessant cancellation spam (try shearing, for instance).

There are distant plans for reworked food, yes. Probably nutrition based in some way, as well as soil quality and whatnot. Another post today in the fora said we're currently at peak food, which is probably correct.
For plans, you want the dev page on this forum: http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html
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Bumber

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2016, 10:50:09 pm »

Although, I believe that these difficult moments happened more often in older versions, or am I wrong? Isn't this 80 pop requirement and the need for armies to walk on the world map only something that happened recently? Are the newer versions made to be easier, or is it just me?
Walking armies is new. 80 pop req is old, and might even be disregarded now (for all the difference that makes.) The main issue is that dwarves are too hard to stress out since the emotion rewrite, so you never see tantrum spirals anymore. The one thing that can still get you is a werebeast attack in your first few months. They sneak, so you don't get a warning until they're right upon your dwarves. (And they're fast!)

Quote
And now that I mentioned the manager, is there any way to do something about bone or wood related products (e.g. I want bone bolts and wood bolts, but I can't pick simply WOOD and BONE as material options in the manager) and do you have any tips for the manager to go smoother than usual?
You have to use the Traits (PLANT and BONE), not Material. There's a sort of guide thread here.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2016, 10:52:17 pm by Bumber »
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

anewaname

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2016, 04:28:13 am »

EDIT: I actually am curious, you guys seem to be playing for a very long time already, how long does it take you to start a metal industry and overall, what are the industries that you usually pick up (e.g. I know it's on a case to case basis depending on what you have on the map, but I'm sure you have preferences). I tend to do everything that I can possibly do.
And now that I mentioned the manager, is there any way to do something about bone or wood related products (e.g. I want bone bolts and wood bolts, but I can't pick simply WOOD and BONE as material options in the manager) and do you have any tips for the manager to go smoother than usual? Also, how much food and drink do you guys stockpile usually?


When I take a non-default embark, I only spend points on labor skills where skill increases product value. The embark items include 10+ tetrahedrite, with tin/bismuth/iron if possible. The early production is 4 iron/copper tools, sometimes a few sets of iron helms/gauntlets/boots/mail too. After a wall is built, twenty copper nestboxes and enough silver axes to help buy out the first caravan. Then, nothing until the magma smelters are running.

You can use the workshop Labor Restrictions in conjunction with manager orders. A craftshop near the butchers for bonecarving, a craftshop just below the surface for woodcrafting, and a craftshop near the mason for stonecrafting. Restrict each to one Labor and manager orders will go to the right one. Farmer's Workshops can be restricted the same way but that is only useful for plant processing, all the animal stuff is seems best done with repeat orders at a shop due to the problems Patrik mentioned.

If you are getting too much food, cut back on some inputs (farmers and fishermen socialize and haul). If your food is not cooked, cook it all (lavish), to condense it. 2000+ "Other" food is good. My booze supply always goes all over the place. My fix is a Brew/R order and caravan buyouts.
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Immahnoob

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2016, 11:35:27 am »

Well, thanks for the answers. I still have one more question, now that everything else has been answered, I forgot to ask for a step by step on how to make a quantum stockpile, the wikia didn't really help me.

Also, how do I get items out of barrels? E.g. food so I can trade?

EDIT: Just to be clear, my question about what industries you guys go for was just to know your preferences, I know how to set them up by now, Oh and, I already use Labor Restrictions (I couldn't use the manager since I did not know PLANT and BONE were part of the traits) and Auto labors. I do tend to do things slightly differently. I tend to add in a bit of roleplay with my practical gameplay, and that is, instead of making a craftshop near a butcher, I'd tend to put the butcher with the tanner and leatherworker near the rooms with the Kitchens and those with the Stills. Farms near Stills and Kitchens and near the Farms, Farmer's workshops and mill with the clothmakers, loom etc, on another level.

By the way, fortifications can't be crossed or climbed, right? Could I be able to make a maze with fortifications (inside maze) and traps for the purpose of not making anymore walls outside (I want to be a Mountain Dwarf)?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 11:44:37 am by Immahnoob »
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PatrikLundell

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2016, 11:59:27 am »

How to make a QS:
- Build a track stop set to dump in the QS direction.
- Set up a single tile stockpile for the stuff you want to store at the dump tile. No bins or barrels. This stockpile can be more general than the feeder one(s), but not narrower, or you'll get stuff dumped into it that are then hauled away.
- Make one (or several) feeder stockpile for things to be hauled to set to take the stuff you want to store. No bins or barrels.
- Make a minecart route (via the 'h' key) with a route stop on top of the track stop.
- Press enter to enter into the route conditions and remove the three default ones.
- Press 's' to select a feeder stockpile to get stuff from
- Press enter to select which items to take (and dump) from the feeder stockpile. As with the target, this can be more general than the feeder stockpile, as the feeder restricts what's going in.
- back out to the 'h' menu and press 'v' by the route stop to select a mine cart to store stuff into (for immediate dumping).

You don't get items out of barrels for trade. You trade barrels with their contents (so actual barrels with booze shouldn't be traded to the pointy ears).

Fortifications can probably not be climbed (I wouldn't bet my fortress on it), but unless there's a floor or wall on top there's an access that at least fliers can get through. Creatures can quantum tunnel through walls and fortifications when dodging, however. Moving fluids can push creatures through fortifications, and completely submerged fortifications can be swum through.
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JimmyAgent007

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2016, 12:15:31 pm »

This here was posted for me and helped a lot to make a QS.

On a related note, it didnt seem to work for mechanisms.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2016, 01:53:46 pm »

Well, my general workshop QS takes mechanisms (in addition to other things) and have done so in many fortresses so you've probably missed some step in the QS setup (is the minecart full of undumped mechanisms as a result of forgetting to specify dumping on the track stop?).
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JimmyAgent007

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2016, 02:12:37 pm »

Well, my general workshop QS takes mechanisms (in addition to other things) and have done so in many fortresses so you've probably missed some step in the QS setup (is the minecart full of undumped mechanisms as a result of forgetting to specify dumping on the track stop?).

Its set to dump south where, the stockpile they are supposed to end up in, is.  Mechs are set to the desired item.  Im just not sure what im missing.  Might want to clear it out and retry from scratch.
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Bumber

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2016, 09:29:04 pm »

By the way, fortifications can't be crossed or climbed, right?
They can be climbed and, in rare occasions, jumped through.
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THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

anewaname

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Re: How do Z levels work in DFhack? ( Z level question and height)
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2016, 02:50:16 am »

By the way, fortifications can't be crossed or climbed, right? Could I be able to make a maze with fortifications (inside maze) and traps for the purpose of not making anymore walls outside (I want to be a Mountain Dwarf)?
There are many examples of trapped hallways available. Some have fortifications for archers to shoot through. But do not forget to put in that all important bridge (that raises, not retracts) and link it to a lever. This way if something goes wrong, your dwarves can pull the lever and seal themselves in.
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There is something to be said about, if the stakes are as high, maybe reconsider your certitudes. One has to be aggressively allistic to feel entitled to be able to trust. But it won't happen to me, my bit doesn't count etc etc... Just saying, after my recent experiences I couldn't trust the public if I wanted to. People got their risk assessment neurons rotten and replaced with game theory. Folks walk around like fat turkeys taunting the world to slaughter them.
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