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[Baaal]

Hello there !

Would a kind soul be kind enough as to explain me more in details where we are concerning DTherapist ?

And what kind of work could be needed (i'm, like, "Competent" in hacking...) ?

From what I get, it works, kind of, until v. 43.03

Are we still waiting for memory layouts of v. 43.05 ? I think it's related with DF Hack.

Thx again for the help !

[feelotraveller]

Best place for Dwarf Therapist discussion is in its thread in the modding area (subboard - Utilities and 3rd party applications).  http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=122968.0

But since I'm here... Therapist (37.0) works perfectly well with 43.03.  Not sure but you probably need to add the appropriate memory layout but that is all.

The legend sometimes known as Quietust posted a memory layout for 32bit 43.05 on page 187.  I haven't tried 43.05 myself but by all reports you should have no problem with this.

64bit is another story but if you are on Linux there is a version that somewhat works, I'm sure help debugging would be appreciated, that the last few posts in the thread have been discussing.  Anyways that is the place to offer to help, or perhaps on the github page - https://github.com/splintermind/Dwarf-Therapist.   

[k33n]

Basically Toady has made an a-priori stance of making sure that the game has a bad UI and the community has been destroyed because only a small minority are even capable of playing the new version.

What would I say to you? Either give up like most people or learn to use the nightmare button press hell to manage your dwarfs manually. Your call.

Or downgrade into another version.

[Thisfox]

I've had no trouble playing the game as-is, k33n. Takes a bit to learn the buttons, and it's hard when things are in the game but not in the wiki (eg: "d"etails for statues, and so on) but it's all pretty straightforward. The wiki is essential for starting out though.

[mikekchar]

Yeah, I think that's a bit uncalled for.  There is a difference between prioritising the UI down on development and deciding to have a bad UI.  In Toady's defence, he admits that UI is not his strong point, so when he does get around to working on it at least he'll have some interesting models from the modding community to look at first.  Because the game is already quite fun to play, it's hard to understand that it has a 30 year planned delivery schedule.  No, that's not normal, but neither is DF a normal game.  You can see the improvement in the stuff that he's worked on recently and there are even some features which I think are really innovative UI-wise (I'm an unabashed fan of the work orders workflow, even if the key presses are inconsistent as usual).

Having said all that, I'm with Thisfox.  I've only ever played vanilla because I'm unwilling to allow the security whole of allowing different processes to read and write into each other's memory (which basically kills all mods).  You have to play differently and it takes time to learn the way to do it, but now that I know it, I wouldn't choose to play with DT even if I could.  Ironically, I don't like the work flow that it guides you down.

But like you said, you have a choice.  Wait for the modding community, or learn how to play vanilla.  Or... as the OP very constructively offered: get involved in the modding community.   Hacking is fun ;-)

[PatrikLundell]

As feelotraveller said, DT works well with 0.43.03 and is included in the LNP for that version if you also need/want DFHack.

I've used 0.43.05 vanilla (well, a tile set was added) and you can get used to it. DT adds a bit of convenience (not to be sneezed at), but it's not as if DF is unplayable without it.

[k33n]

Its not that I cant play the game—I can. We can. No one else can. I cant get people into the game anymore like I used to.

For some unknown and misguided reason toady will not bake in therapist.

[steel jackal]

For some unknown and misguided reason toady will not bake in therapist.

maybe because he has other, more important things to do? like make a magic system and wizards for our forts, or make it so we can send armies to invade other sites, or make invasions more than just brute force attacks where almost the entire population of the attacking city dies in one big suicide attack.


hopefully when today has some time on his hands he will add a therapist noble that will give you the big board of information of each dwarf like the tool does, and that the manager will be upgraded with therapists labor assignment system. but we dont need that right now because its still easy enough to run a fort without those tools. now, when dwarves needs are more complicated, and their feelings mean more than "if you severely mistreat and abuse me i will throw a tantrum, but give me booze and a nice bedroom and ill be fine" THEN therapist should be added to the game.

but what would you rather have, the cool stuff that today has listed at http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html or therapist being vanilla?
let the dfhack people work on therapist, they are close to getting therapist up to the newest version (which is only hard because 64bit is new) and once they have it up to date, future updates will be FAR faster than this

[wierd]

There is a therapist like system implemented by a dfhack plugin that works in the current alpha.

It works in .35 just fine.

[steel jackal]

There is a therapist like system implemented by a dfhack plugin that works in the current alpha.

It works in .35 just fine.

explain, i have dfhack in 0.43.05, how do i get this plugin.

i can easily live without therapist, but thats not to say i dont want it, its an amazing utility that boosts my efficiency

[mikekchar]

I will say one thing.  There are a couple of tweaks that would make assigning roles a lot easier in vanilla.  First, it would be nice to have an option when 'v'iewing a unit to see what roles are turned on, without having to walk through all the menus.   Just an overview, similar to 'g' (which shows you which skills you have acquired).  The main thing is not to show anything you haven't selected.

The other main tweaks (which would be harder to implement) would be to be able to return to the context in the 'u'nit list after you exit from 'z' going to the unit.  That way you could walk through your units and assign tasks.  Of course, adding 'f'ilter ala DFHack would be a godsend.

Finally, I would change the default keybindings for viewing a unit to *either* 'v' or 'z'.  It's confusing to have it 'v' in one place and 'z' in the other.

These are really the only things that frustrate me with vanilla.  I fully understand the desire for the big-honking-chart-with-everything-on-it, because it's easier to understand and to optimise.  But for me, half of the charm of the game is the need to actually interact with my dwarfs individually.  As it stands, the easiest way to assign roles in vanilla is to have groups of dwarfs physically move to a location so that you can use 'v' to view them and change their roles -- just like I would have to do if I was there.

Different play styles are going to require different tools and work flows.  Please understand that what seems obviously required in your play style, may not suit other play styles.  I can understand that the lack of certain features will "ruin" the game for certain players.  That's to be expected and a developer will always have to prioritise one vision.  It's frustrating when you end up being in a group that is not catered to by the developer.  That's actually why I tend to prefer free and open source software.  There are no barriers for users.

But in this case, you at least have a very active modding community who thinks the same way you do.  It means you are 1 version behind most of the time, but it's not the end of the world.  Certainly that one version shouldn't put off anybody wishing to play that mod.

[wierd]

There is a therapist like system implemented by a dfhack plugin that works in the current alpha.

It works in .35 just fine.

explain, i have dfhack in 0.43.05, how do i get this plugin.

i can easily live without therapist, but thats not to say i dont want it, its an amazing utility that boosts my efficiency

It is called manipulator. It is accessed in game. Dfhack inserts code for it.

http://dfhack.readthedocs.io/en/stable/docs/Plugins.html#manipulator

I can confirm it working in 64bit Linux.

[Thisfox]

Its not that I cant play the game—I can. We can. No one else can. I cant get people into the game anymore like I used to.

The severely limited number of friends I have who would be interested in the game (most of my friends would have no interest) I introduced to it years ago. I rarely meet anyone else who would like the game as it stood many years ago, or as it stands now, so I don't tend to introduce more people to the game. I guess it's because not only am I not a programmer, but I don't tend to associate with programmers either.... But it's a fun game, it's just not like any other game out there. I don't think Therapist is required to enjoy it. My friends don't either.

I can see what the game will one day be, but I enjoy it as it is right now. It's my very own ant farm

But for me, half of the charm of the game is the need to actually interact with my dwarfs individually.  As it stands, the easiest way to assign roles in vanilla is to have groups of dwarfs physically move to a location so that you can use 'v' to view them and change their roles -- just like I would have to do if I was there.

Huh. I just use the "u" menu, and pay no attention to where a dorf is situated unless it's relevant to his immediate safety. I've never pushed specific dorfs to specific locations in groups: The closest I've done is to get the Broker to the trade depot, to wall the occasional were into whatever room they ended up in, or assign vampires to rooms with desks and chairs so that they can be walled-in record keepers. Why do you put them all in the same place to change their roles? Do you check their clothing etc while you're at it? Are there other reasons? I'm curious. Perhaps I need this procedure, and I'm curious about why, so that I can decide?

[mikekchar]

@Thisfox Let's say you decided that you want a glass maker (and you didn't have one before).  It is nice to be able to look at your dwarfs to see which one has glass making skills.  If you use 'u', you have highlight the dwarf, press 'v', keep track of who it was, press 'esc', press 'u', highlight the next dwarf, press 'v', remember if the other guy had higher skill, so on and so forth.  It's complicated.

What I do is put all of my dwarfs in squads (whether or not they ever do any military service).  Then I direct the squad to an empty room and wait for them to show up.  At that point you can use 'v' from the main window and position the cursor over each dwarf in the room.  No juggling at all.  You can compare dwarfs easily.  No problems.  Then when you want to change their roles, it's the same thing.  Just move the cursor over each dwarf and change their roles.  You can move as many squads as you want into the room.  You can even select individual dwarfs from the squad menu.

Even if someone is not present in the room, they are either sleeping, drinking or praying, so they are easy to find.  DF puts active squads at the end of the 'u' list, so you can work your way up from the bottom looking for dwarfs that didn't get stationed for some reason.

Usually I work with a 2 squad fortress.  In other words, all of the essential roles in the fortress are split up between the 20 dwarfs in 2 squads.  Then I have redundancy by doing the same thing in a separate 2 squads.  To be honest, there is almost nothing that can't be done with 20 dwarfs, let alone 40, so after that I just get a bit creative, or swap people through military service or whatever.  It's pretty flexible.  I usually also keep notes in a separate application, but it depends on how efficient I want to be.

[Thisfox]

Interesting. I'm not sure I'd ever do that.

In my "u" directory, unless there's a sudden migration, the names stay relatively in order. If I want a glassmaker, as I'm about to make a glass workshop, I just work my way down the list, and check everydorf I rarely use (who is probably currently a hauler despite his apparent skills) like the cheesemakers, gelders, milkers, and so on. I check them in order, returning to the "u" directory each time to check the next one down the list. I get to see where these dorfs are (hauling coffins in the deepest gold mine, or gathering berries on the surface, or partying in the wellhouse, or whatever) which gives me an idea of what they've been up to before I "volunteer" them.

Eventually I find someone who has the same love of glass I do, or run out of dorfs, but by that point I've got a good idea of someone else who deserves the damn job for another reason, whatever it be. Or usually, I will "volunteer" two dorfs just to be sure.

I guess my fort is more "free range".