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[anzki4]

I was about to post this to the AmeriPol thread, but as I felt it would be pretty offtopic, I chose to start a new thread instead.

For the sake of simplicity, in the following post I will be talking mostly about racism, but everything I say can be applied to any kind of discrimination, based on gender, sexual preference, disability or anything really.

Now, racism is an emotional word, and rightly so. When people hear it, or worse yet get called racist their emotions take control and they get defensive. As we all know, however, emotions are really bad when it comes to solving problems, which is why we need rationality. This is why I decided to write this post; as an attempt to make few rational observations about discrimination and to urge others as well to both observe their words and actions and to partake in the following discussion. I strongly believe that without this rational exchange of ideas the problem of discrimination is never going to be solved.

Before going any further I want to say that by discrimination I mean treating people differently because of their superficial traits, so by extension by racism I mean treating people differently because of their ethnicity. Why this is harmful will be discussed further below.

Here are the observations:

1) Someone being a racist does not mean that they are a neo-nazi running on the street beating black people. Someone being a racist does not mean they are literally Hitler. All neo-nazis who beat black people on the streets are racists, but not all racists are neo-nazis beating black people on the street. The term "racist" has become a bogeyman that almost invariably evokes images of the worst kinds of racism, that is to say the violent kind.  Racist is a person, who simply treats other people differently because of their race. When a boss of a company has two equally qualified candidates and he hires the person of his own ethnicity because he is his own ethnicity he is a racist. When teacher gives special attention to people of different ethnicity he is a racist. When someone makes a racist joke he is a racist. (Please don't fly off the handle just yet.) Note that this fits the above definition since racist jokes are ethnicity specific and hence, treating members of a different ethnicity differently. Why this is harmful is again discussed further down.

2) You can be racist and not know it. In fact the vast majority of racists don't know that they are racists. This is simply because at least a large part of our decisionmaking process is subconscious. This is why I believe that we ABSOLUTELY NEED to treat non-violent racists better than we currently do. They are not evil people. We don't live in a cartoon world where people wake up in the morning twisting their moustaches and thinking of ways of how they can discriminate against others today. The problem of racism is not solved by vilifying and insulting racists. That being said, I think racism needs to be called out. I also think that people should not take being called a racist as an insult, but simply descriptor of their (perceived) behaviour. It is a chance of introspection; a chance to learn and a possibility to become a better, more well-rounded person.

It should probably be noted at this juncture that because of the two above points, pretty much everyone is a racist to some extent. I am a racist; I sometimes make racists jokes, I sometimes notice that I've acted differently in company of people of other ethnicities and I almost certainly treat people of certain ethnicities differently without realizing it.

Now for the third and, I believe, most important observation about the harmfulness of even the smallest, innocent-seeming type of racism. (For example the beforementioned racist jokes.) We all know that violence against people or preferential treatment for ones own ethnicity is harmful but many give a free pass to these smaller actions of racism, believing that they are not that harmful. I strongly dissagree and to illustrate this, I invite you to consider the following:

Imagine a child with a large birthmark in your face. Now imagine that during their whole chilhood they heard constant jokes about it. No matter how lighthearted those jokes might be, no matter that the intention behind them might not be to hurt the child, it IS GOING TO HAVE A TREMENDOUS EFFECT ON THAT CHILD AND THEIR DEVELOPMENT. That isn't to say only children are affected by it. Sure, you might be more thick-skinned and therefore not affected by racist or sexist jokes, even if you are the target of them, but that does not mean that they affect no one. And before anyone says that people need to grow thicker skin; you did not decide to become thick-skinned. It is a matter almost entirely beyond your control so saying people need to learn it is missing the point.

We all are guilty of discrimination of some sort. No one is perfect, but that isn't the point. We can only try our best and I urge everyone to observe and think about their words and actions, because we cannot fix our problems if we do not acknowledge them. I'm sure we all can do a little more to make this world a kinder place for everyone.

<3

[NRDL]

*Thumbs up in agreement*

Definitely agree with points in your post.  This is mainly just a PTW as there's no serious discussion yet.

I like to think about that episode of Fairly Oddparents where everyone is turned into grey blobs to eliminate differences between people, and so everyone's "equal". Naturally, every character that got turned into a grey blob started claiming subtle differences, and using those perceived ( and likely nonexistent ) differences to make themselves feel superior.

Rather sad to think that if there was a truly "equal" world where everybody was on even, good footing, nobody would like that. Deep down, everybody wants to think themselves better than everyone else.

[Antioch]

Fuck all people with light blond, black or red hair. Fuck people with curly hair.

Dark blond straight hair master race!


....is how racists always sound to me.


Sense, it makes none.

[Loud Whispers]

As a semantic point I think you mean 'prejudiced,' at worst 'edgy' not 'racist'

A racist is not someone who makes a racist joke or gives special treatment to an ethnicity

Someone being a racist does not mean that they are a neo-nazi running on the street beating black people. Someone being a racist does not mean they are literally Hitler. All neo-nazis who beat black people on the streets are racists, but not all racists are neo-nazis beating black people on the street.

As opposed to neo-nazis who beat white people on the streets being anti-racists? Assuming of course that neo-nazi is synonymous with white people

You'll pardon the useless nitpicking I used here in order to bring up an important question that gets tossed around, since modern progressive monologue from the Americas about racism defines racism not as a belief, but by an action expressed by an oppressor vs the oppressed, that is not covered by the other marxist dialectics. Thus black people who beat up white people for their whiteness are not racist, because racism = prejudice + institutional power

Moreover US progressive monologue does not deal with the complexities of racism because it has very loose racial categories in discussion. It is funny when people try to redress historical issues with people without historical identities, it simply cannot work. On a more practical level in contemporary analysis, it fails to account for mixed raced individuals and issues of self-identity

I posit that "racist" has not become a bogeyman. I posit that "racist" was a bogeyman, and is now nothing more than a bad word white people use to insult one another, so overused and wrongly used it has become as meaningless as the word "literally," or "epic."
The word itself "racism" does not "invariably" evoke images of ethnic warfare, and is indicative of how discourse on racism is dominated per discussion by one sole narrative, each one obliquely ignoring the other in order to maintain ideological purity :<

When a boss of a company has two equally qualified candidates and he or she hires the person of his or her own ethnicity simply because they are of their own ethnicity, that is not racist under law as long as the ethnicity in question is a protected characteristic
When a teacher gives special attention to people of different ethnicity they are adjusting for cultural differences that could cause some students to fall behind their peers
When Frankie Boyle makes a racist joke he is a comedian
When you make the definition of racist become the vast majority of the population, you feed into the god awful smug mess that has occurred in the West. You get a crack core of elite liberals who believe they are the enlightened anti-racists out on a mission to correct the rest of the world from their racism. This legitimizes their arrogance and egotism, whilst removing any weight to the word racism - when it's everything, it's pointless. It was as if we applied the "fringe" label to views held by majorities.

We don't live in a cartoon world where people wake up in the morning twisting their moustaches and thinking of ways of how they can discriminate against others today. It is depressing this needs pointing out. The problem of racism is not solved by vilifying and insulting racists. The problem of prejudice is unsolvable. If we use your common definition of racism and call out what is defined as a common thing held by the majority of the world's people, it becomes pointless, its usage as a petty insult cannot be changed, especially as it will only ever be a descriptor of socially unacceptable behaviour.

It is a chance of introspection; a chance to learn and a possibility to become a better, more well-rounded person.

I think a person being on their own, having a good sense of patience - most importantly, having a strong introspective ability will do much more to help someone examine themself than to have everyone else call them racist. Personally, I also do not want introspection to be drawn further into identity politics, I am completely jaded by whites who refuse introspection because they don't want to culturally appropriate eastern virtues; I believe they just don't want to place themselves up against any standard of usefulness. Oh shit, look at me there making judgements on a race based off of my interactions with its members in one geographical location, thus applied to a global category! Hence why I don't like the black and white (literally) labels, the broader and cruder the generalizations get the more offensive the racism becomes.
Really, my one piece of constructive advice on this rambling tangent is that one will not become a well-rounded person by downloading political wank into your brain, one will become utterly consumed by neuroses trying to eradicate all traces of moral transgression until all that is left is the eternal Swede. Go outside, meet new people, go abroad, meet new peoples, study ancient philosophy, study your religion, study your acquaintances religions, judge yourself every day, take the judgements of others and learn and develop. Don't be your own critic just to mitigate your own criticism, and for gods sakes actually have practical skills in your hands with some actual work ethic. You can't give someone a chance at introspection with that one word, there are only three words in the English language capable of inducing even a little introspection.
GOD, FOOD, FUCK.

Imagine a child with a large birthmark in your face. Now imagine that during their whole chilhood they heard constant jokes about it. No matter how lighthearted those jokes might be, no matter that the intention behind them might not be to hurt the child, it IS GOING TO HAVE A TREMENDOUS EFFECT ON THAT CHILD AND THEIR DEVELOPMENT. That isn't to say only children are affected by it. Sure, you might be more thick-skinned and therefore not affected by racist or sexist jokes, even if you are the target of them, but that does not mean that they affect no one. And before anyone says that people need to grow thicker skin; you did not decide to become thick-skinned. It is a matter almost entirely beyond your control so saying people need to learn it is missing the point.

How do you become a more well rounded individual by going through life in a "safe space"? Individuals raised in this manner are all the more useless for it, and oh boy it is going to have a tremendous effect on a child that reaches adulthood having never experienced humour, criticism, or such fundamental human emotions as anger or hatred.
"You did not decide to become thick-skinned."
Yes, I very much did. The only things in my life that I have no choice in whether I'm offended by them or not are vomit, fungus and faeces :P

We all are guilty of discrimination of some sort. No one is perfect, but that isn't the point. We can only try our best and I urge everyone to observe and think about their words and actions, because we cannot fix our problems if we do not acknowledge them.

This is my original sin, but I am forgiven, for I follow the progressive creed e.t.c.

I'm sure we all can do a little more to make this world a kinder place for everyone.

This is hardly the only "little more" way to make this world a kinder place - if it isn't making the world worse.

Definitely agree with points in your post.  This is mainly just a PTW as there's no serious discussion yet.
I like to think about that episode of Fairly Oddparents where everyone is turned into grey blobs to eliminate differences between people, and so everyone's "equal". Naturally, every character that got turned into a grey blob started claiming subtle differences, and using those perceived ( and likely nonexistent ) differences to make themselves feel superior.
Rather sad to think that if there was a truly "equal" world where everybody was on even, good footing, nobody would like that. Deep down, everybody wants to think themselves better than everyone else.

Don't rush into the other end of the extreme where you deny that we're different, race is a social construct, genes don't care what we think about them. Equality is not about making everyone into a neutered useless grey blob devoid of individuality, and it is disturbing how sameness has become the target where equality once was.

This allows me to segway into what I think of racism: It is the belief that humans can be separated into racial groups, and that these racial groups express common and exclusive characteristics. Disproven in modern times since the common characteristics turned out to not be common within the prescribed races and the exclusive characteristics turned out to not be exclusive within the prescribed races.

Fuck all people with light blond, black or red hair. Fuck people with curly hair. Dark blond straight hair master race! ....is how racists always sound to me. Sense, it makes none.

How many racists have you talked to, sounds like awesome story time

Anyways that's just my rant over

[NRDL]

The point I was trying to make is that, in my belief, people NEED and WANT to see differences in other people, regardless of whether or not the differences are actually there. More of an observation on humanity's coping mechanisms in regards to the supposed dichotomy "me vs everything and everyone else".

[Loud Whispers]

The point I was trying to make is that, in my belief, people NEED and WANT to see differences in other people, regardless of whether or not the differences are actually there. More of an observation on humanity's coping mechanisms in regards to the supposed dichotomy "me vs everything and everyone else".

The way I see it, people NEED and WANT to see similarities in people, who become their people. Then everyone else becomes other people

It is lovely how you can split one community in two and upon competition, they become two communities

[Shadowlord]

As opposed to neo-nazis who beat white people on the streets being anti-racists? Assuming of course that neo-nazi is synonymous with white people

Not really a convincing argument considering that the nazi concept of the "master race" (something that never existed, and still doesn't) was only blond-haired blue-eyed people.

You'll pardon the useless nitpicking I used here in order to bring up an important question that gets tossed around, since modern progressive monologue from the Americas about racism defines racism not as a belief, but by an action expressed by an oppressor vs the oppressed, that is not covered by the other marxist dialectics. Thus black people who beat up white people for their whiteness are not racist, because racism = prejudice + institutional power

Um. No. If a group of black people beat up a white person, that can still get classified as a hate crime.

I TL;DR'd after that.

[Loud Whispers]

Not really a convincing argument considering that the nazi concept of the "master race" (something that never existed, and still doesn't) was only blond-haired blue-eyed people.

"The range of blond hair color in pure Nordic peoples runs from flaxen and red to shades of chestnut and brown... It must be clearly understood that blondness of hair and of eye is not a final test of Nordic race. Quoted in Grant, 1922, p. 26.

u sure about that fam
cos they didn't kill hitler lol
source wikishit

And yeah it's not just a convincing argument, it's already true famalam
Have this Slovakian
Have this Turkish
Have this Chinese

This is the issue with races, you can't find traits exclusive to racial categories

Um. No. If a group of black people beat up a white person, that can still get classified as a hate crime.

Sure they could, but it's a complicated situation, and wouldn't be classed as racism under the newest definition of prejudice+power.

I TL;DR'd after that.

that's racist mate

[Grimlocke]

OP kind read like some sort of sermon of how we are all born sinful and must repent for our sinfully sinful lives of sin.

That attitude to racism is... tiresome, not helping anyone and even responsible for a lot of discussion on real problems bogging down into this kind of self-defeating rhetoric. You can't enforce complete blindness to culture and ethnicity on yourself, much less on other people and you really don't need to either. Stop walking on eggshells and worrying about thought crimes. Just try and treat people equal, rather than the same.

People's sense of identity are tied to their ethnicity, culture, language, gender, etc. You don't do anyone a favor by denying any of this exists. I have worked and talked to people from all over the world, and not once has any of them been offended when I showed an interest in their culture or made a joke about it while showing there wasn't any actual malice in it.

By all means, make politically incorrect jokes with foreigners, people with different colors and funny accents. Stop it with the eggshells and special treatment, treat them as equals and you can both have a laugh and make some friends.

[Neonivek]

Problem is that we aren't anywhere close to the point where we can just say "let racism handle itself, we got better things to do"

Our handling of racism needs to be adjusted not thrown out ESPECIALLY now that we know more about it.

The reason why the eggshells is a problem isn't because "You end up having to be too careful" but because it hits another form of racism I like to call "White people being insulted FOR another culture without actually asking if they were even insulted".

[Grimlocke]

The reason why the eggshells is a problem isn't because "You end up having to be too careful" but because it hits another form of racism I like to call "White people being insulted FOR another culture without actually asking if they were even insulted".

Reminds me about some indignant outcry that happened in the US about a Chinese history-inspired movie starring some Western actor. I think it was Matt Damon, the guy who's somewhat expressionless mugshot is always ends up become the movie poster. There was some shouting on social media, name calling in the direction of Damon, white people in general, the movie writer, director, financiers... until it turned out the movie was financed by Chinese businessmen, who specifically commissioned Damon as the lead.

Because apparently the Chinese audience really likes Matt Damon movies. They see domestically made movies as kind of mundane and even second rate, and to them Damon acting out their (here highly fictionalized) history was a form of recognition and prestige. And of course, good money could also be made as the Chinese audience is really mindbogglingly large.

A huge deal was made out of something that was only a problem for a very small number of people: The ethnically Chinese/east-Asian American actors who felt they got snubbed. It does suck that they are stuck playing sidekick forever, but the whole 'cultural appropriation' narrative that got stuck to the story and printed out in various news outlets turned out to be complete rubbish and probably made us look a bit stupid to the people 'we' thought we were defending.

[Grimlocke]

The movie in question is "The Great Wall" and I don't believe it's released yet. I just laugh during the trailer because he sticks out so hilariously.

Heh oh yes, I remember now. I think my reaction was something along those lines as well. There was also giant monsters and really campy overacting making the whole thing a pretty goofy affair. Maybe I'll go see it once its out.

[NRDL]

So, just wondering, what are acceptable means of dealing with and "solving" racism?

[Reelya]

We don't live in a cartoon world where people wake up in the morning twisting their moustaches and thinking of ways of how they can discriminate against others today. It is depressing this needs pointing out. The problem of racism is not solved by vilifying and insulting racists. The problem of prejudice is unsolvable. If we use your common definition of racism and call out what is defined as a common thing held by the majority of the world's people, it becomes pointless, its usage as a petty insult cannot be changed, especially as it will only ever be a descriptor of socially unacceptable behaviour.

Yeah, I have to agree here. We can whitewash (excuse the term) all racial issues, but the fact is, people who are outspokenly anti-racist have just as many out-groups they despise as anyone. And if you look at college campuses, modern American campuses have a faculty that's over 90% liberal, you see witchhunts of professors for not being the exact right shade of liberal or expressing an idea or asking a question that's not 100% in line with the orthodoxy.

Given the general Lord Of The Flies mentality of people, even people who will scream at you constantly about how tolerant they are, I don't have much hope for a utopia if we stamp out racism. e.g. if we got rid of religion, we'd see more of those anti-athiest campaigns against people for not being the exact right type of atheists, and so on and so on. If we got rid of patriarchy, the schisms in feminism would probably become greater too. After all, some of those groups are at each other's throats already.

[chaoticag]

I think saying that stamping out racism won't lead to a utopia and we'd still be arguing is a poor argument in light of, well, human history. It's not that racism in the past has lead to people being really rude to each other, or being pretty critical of each other. People used to kill and loot over discrimination. And it's not like we reached this point by being nice to racists or sexists or any other color of bigots. So it's a little odd calling these groups "at each others throats" really in light of how this used to be handled in the past.

So yeah, I dunno, it really sounds like people are saying everything we did up to now is well and good but we should stop this now, we're going too far.