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[Ghazkull]

Is there actually a chance to bring ANY of the good factions on your side?

[Neonivek]

Is there actually a chance to bring ANY of the good factions on your side?

Yeah. Heck I believe you can even get multiple factions on your side if you know what your doing.

[Retropunch]

It's not that the factions should be petty or squabbling, it's just that they seem to be doing that past the point that makes sense. Part of it is just that it feels a bit forced, the other part is that it's not really fleshed out enough in game. It's like when you have an 'evil for evils sake' character in a lot of RPGs - there's no reason why, they've just decided that they'll be 'EEEVVVILLL!!!'

Maybe it all gets fleshed out later, but it hasn't so far.

[Greenbane]

It's not that the factions should be petty or squabbling, it's just that they seem to be doing that past the point that makes sense. Part of it is just that it feels a bit forced, the other part is that it's not really fleshed out enough in game. It's like when you have an 'evil for evils sake' character in a lot of RPGs - there's no reason why, they've just decided that they'll be 'EEEVVVILLL!!!'

Maybe it all gets fleshed out later, but it hasn't so far.

I'm only 10 hours in (just finished Act I), and got a similar impression. I'm mostly trying to remain pragmatic, and some faction stances just don't make much sense. On the one hand you have a childish sorcerer guy who's more interested in shenanigans and being a pain in the arse than doing his job, while the other, supposedly great general is mostly intent on killing everything. Neither attitude seems conducive to the conquest of a realm you'll obviously have to rule over afterwards. There's evil and there's stupid.

This would only make sense if Kyros were just terribly bored and sent two woefully incompatible armies on a mission just to laugh at their clashes. Or if the Overlord has taken a special interest in the Fatebinder for whatever reason, and the whole conquest of the Tiers is just an excuse to evaluate their potential.

[umiman]

At the midpoint of the game, you talk with another NPC about how Kyros is probably making sure everything in the area stays fucky just to keep the two armies occupied (or wiped out) due to how after the conquest of the Tiers, there's nothing left to do.

[Neonivek]

Maybe it all gets fleshed out later, but it hasn't so far.

It doesn't. There is no nuance to be found.

Which you think there would given they throw tons and tons and tons and tons and tons of exposition (and not even optional because you HAVE to exhaust all conversations)

"and then there are the book keepers who write books. They are run by Bookwritington the third who decreed that all book keepers shall write books. Then an edict came that turned all books into scrolls thus destroying the book keepers forever"

"But the book keepers weren't destroyed forever, they still live on in enclaves and have the exact same philosophy and temperament as before"

[Greenbane]

At the midpoint of the game, you talk with another NPC about how Kyros is probably making sure everything in the area stays fucky just to keep the two armies occupied (or wiped out) due to how after the conquest of the Tiers, there's nothing left to do.

In the end, any nonsense can be justified because Kyros is almighty and 95% of the world is theirs, so they can allow anything they want, and easily undo any remotely major screw-up with an Edict or, presumably, the massive armies he has elsewhere in the continent. The conquest of the Tiers ultimately seems like a minor affair, and in the grand scale of things, the Disfavored, the Scarlet Chorus and any other faction's antics are similarly unimportant.

[Neonivek]

At the midpoint of the game, you talk with another NPC about how Kyros is probably making sure everything in the area stays fucky just to keep the two armies occupied (or wiped out) due to how after the conquest of the Tiers, there's nothing left to do.

In the end, any nonsense can be justified because Kyros is almighty and 95% of the world is theirs, so they can allow anything they want, and easily undo any remotely major screw-up with an Edict or, presumably, the massive armies he has elsewhere in the continent. The conquest of the Tiers ultimately seems like a minor affair, and in the grand scale of things, the Disfavored, the Scarlet Chorus and any other faction's antics are similarly unimportant.

It is actually one of the things the game brings up. That even if the "Good Guys" wait out the edict and successfully kill both of Kyros' armies or even SOMEHOW kill them, themselves... He has several others to the point where they are essentially endless.

The Archons being a disorganized mess may very well be BECAUSE Kyros himself cares so very little with keeping his own kingdom in check or ensuring a measure of fairness. Thus any extra reward or glory a archon wants had to be obtained by themselves. In fact he likely encourages it.

It is why the most stable archon in the game is one who genuinely cares about the place he governs.

If Kyros wanted to he could even have sent nearly all of his army to defeat the rest of his enemies... I can only guess the reason he doesn't is because even with his powers it would be a disaster (Heck even with the edict the archons couldn't work together enough to succeed. You are LITERALLY the only reason they succeed)

[clone95]

I think my only argument about the Tiers and the nature of the armies there is this: The Factions ingame are specifically sent as the dregs and shitbirds of Kyros' armies. Presumably Kyros and his actually effective Archons/Armies are at more prestigious posts back near the Capitol. Only Tunon is actually competent - the others, Shadows, Songs, Secrets, and War - they're either incompetent, dangerous, or not suited to deployment in a more peaceful locale.

Hell, I think Kyros' goal was to kill all the people within the eye, conveniently ridding himself of both Voices of Nerat and Graven Ashe and their armies.

[Neonivek]

Well neither Nerat or Graven Ashe was... incompetent so to speak.

Just that the infighting between them (and conversely the two factions they run) has gotten to the point where they fight each other far more then they fight their enemy.

In fact all the impasses that delay or even outright stop them are due to no one willing to work together. Yet neither one is willing to let the other take the glory either and just go "Well if you think you can do it, go ahead"

---

The fact that they are flat out incompetent is more of... "The creators of the game cannot write them very well" situation.

[clone95]

Well neither Nerat or Graven Ashe was... incompetent so to speak.

If Ashe or Nerat were competent, you wouldn't have needed to even involve yourself in the Conquest at the very beginning. You're making decisions leaders should've made already - hashed out areas of operation and authority. Instead, every battlefield and target had elements of both sides squabbling without a proper chain of command or division of objectives.

IMO, Nerat and Ashe rely almost entirely on their Archon magics to make up for shortcomings on a personal level. Anyone competent isn't getting sent to the Tiers, aka the Assend of Nowhere.

[Neonivek]

It is the difference between author's intent and the narrative.

The Author's intent is that they are competent but that their inability and unwillingness to work together is what does them in because of both their personal grudges but also a system that flat out doesn't work. Yet individually they are intelligent and powerful in their own right, albeit with different methodologies.

The narrative tells a different story that they are completely 100% incompetent and even Kyros forcing them wasn't enough to the extent where you basically have to hold their freeken hand.

---

Honestly I never know how I should judge something when there is a dissonance between what the writer's were trying to say... and what they actually said.

[JumpingJack]

If Ashe or Nerat were competent, you wouldn't have needed to even involve yourself in the Conquest at the very beginning. You're making decisions leaders should've made already - hashed out areas of operation and authority. Instead, every battlefield and target had elements of both sides squabbling without a proper chain of command or division of objectives.

IMO, Nerat and Ashe rely almost entirely on their Archon magics to make up for shortcomings on a personal level. Anyone competent isn't getting sent to the Tiers, aka the Assend of Nowhere.

Honestly, I think that Kyros was probably going for a somewhat hands-off approach to begin with. Given that the game is based in a strange, fantastical Bronze Age scenario, with Kyros acting as some sort of caricature of Alexander the Great, I'd wager that the Overlord's mindset concerning the Archons is likewise a parody of Alexander's supposed last words.

"Who shall rule the Tiers? The strongest."

[Mithras]

You see, there could be an argument for Kyros sending the most incompetent people to do his bidding, and they certainly seem incompetent enough in the game but they aren't painted as incompetent in the pre-game which makes me think they weren't intended to be so.

Ashe is portrayed as the last hold out Archon, when everyone else was bending to Kyros' will Ashe somehow resisted him for a long campaign, presumably heavily outnumbered and far away from friendly supply lines. Ashe gave me the impression of a fantasy Hannibal, never losing a battle, sure, but sometimes screwed over by the strategic situation. And he is The Archon of War, sure that must mean something, being the go to henchman for large scale armed conflict, yet (to take an early example) he apparently doesn't even inspire enough loyalty (or have enough forethought) to have his siege mages turn up to the siege which is at the moment the only conflict in the region.

The Archon of Secrets was the most disappointing for me because he seemed so epic in my conquest run. The two of us sat down and hatched a plan to bring the downfall of an entire order of mages without shedding a drop of blood. That's genius, and it demonstrates an ability to cooperate with others that just doesn't seem to be in the game. And honestly, Secret's ability to convert enemies could have been a lot cooler, imagine storming the walls and suddenly one of your enemies turns around and stabs their friend in the back because they were a spy for the Scarlet Chorus. Instead Secret's willingness to convert enemies is a major campaign weakness (and I still can't get over the fact that they wanted to kill the single useful prisoner they had before I intervened, and yeah maybe they didn't want the camps location revealed, but do you know what would have been easier than all the bull they pulled? Just not asking me to help) because apparently Secrets is useless at making conversion stick, despite the fact that he's got Siren, the Archon of mind control sitting around twiddling her thumbs in camp.

In this case for me the problem is that the show doesn't match the tell. And while there could be deep interesting reasons for this the more likely explanation is that the writers weren't capable of showing what they wanted to tell.

[Retropunch]

In this case for me the problem is that the show doesn't match the tell. And while there could be deep interesting reasons for this the more likely explanation is that the writers weren't capable of showing what they wanted to tell.

I think that hits the nail on the head really. I wouldn't mind if they were set up to be incompetent from the start, but there's a lot of description (and conquest stuff) which make the Ashe and Secrets out to be major badasses, and then they come across as just useless. Again, if that was part of the story (everyone thinks they're awesome but they're really not and it's just chance that got them so far) then I'd be fine with it, but it seems it just missed the mark of the story they wanted to tell.