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[FantasticDorf]

I'm still not sure what the burial thing has to do with anything, it's a different sort of bug, if you could have a goblin fort order elf meat, or an elf fort head out to eat the slain enemies I'd call it fixed and working properly, if you could have a dwarf raised by elves in adventurer mode eat the bodies of those they kill but not those killed by others, I'd call it fixed and working properly.

The war causes weren't random, it's always the same list of reasons when there are multiple, if the civ being warred with eats sapients, takes slaves, and mutilates their foes it will cycle through those if the one warring with them doesn't do them.

If another civ is also at war with the first one but they keep slaves, it will only list eating sapients/mutilating foes, etc.

Yes thats how it works, but the graveyard stealing the bodies when they die, INSTEAD of going to the refuse stockpile (because you cannot connect links or remove items from the graveyard stockpile) stops sentient bodies entering the productions chains of butcheries

Sentient bodies go to corpse refuse possibly along with normal animals -> Butcheries in 45 tiles -> Workshops -> Goods stockpiles

Graveyard stockpile (supposed to only be for your own entity race) -> Mandatory burial/gravestone slabs

Its quite clearly shown that there isn't a problem with both eating sentient meat or using products if you dont get them off site (which involves the creature dying on site to be scooped up into the refuse stockpile)

• Stockpiles continue to work even in adventure mode, so the graveyard stockpile is always active & tries to claim all sentient bodies and generally forbids all the products because they are integral to burying the corpse as a whole.

Normally as a goblin civ, especially in version 40.24 that chaosvolt/randomdragon points out where dead_dwarf doesn't interfere, that edible meat from the pet or neutral sentient would immediately go to the meat stockpile i have designated next door on the left rather than the graveyard stockpile where it ended up across the corridor.

If a dwarf entity civ stole some goblin/sentient meat from a caravan (getting it without butchering/slaughtering) it would immediately be moved to the refuse stockpile to be trashed. Using the bones however with [SENTIENT_TROPHIES:ACCEPTABLE] once the corpse has rotted in the refuse stockpile & then been butchered/fallen apart naturally would be fine.

TL;DR - Ethics system is fine, the graveyard bug here stops corpses getting onto the production chain because it steals all the sentient corpses & doesn't allow workshops to take out the materials. Materials are also corpse parts for the graveyard and are also unusable. Sentient corpses have gotten confused in the bug for graveyard items rather than refuse items, and graveyards dont like to share. This bug happens anywhere in the world making sentient materials unusable & inedible after 42.01 .

Ok, ive took on investigating (0010124: Full citizen petitioning for citizenship) this issue, and here's what i've found.

Indeed the child is trying to petition to join the same civilisation, as a member of the fortress they are already within. There are no taverns/occupation areas on-site and dwarves are suffering from lacks of attention generally. There is a large pasture outside im using as a test tavern area, the animals are also quite deprived & distracted.

> Firstly i investigate them via GM editor, there's nothing particularly strange in the flags though a lot of 'Important historical figure' junk.

> I then fiddle with the flags and send the dwarf off (using "left=true/false") map to walk back on again. On my second attempt they rejoin as a traveller (i did change them to forest entity once and it turned them into a E and back again when removed, on the second "left" they also turned into a E), im currently trying to get them to talk to a dwarf to see why they started to visit the site.

> Child has changed name entirely from "Urist Nutnet" to "ushrir Nikotrigoth" (untranslatable, name as it is) and officially joined as a vistor (prior to creating the tavern site)



(SUPPLIED WITH ISSUE REPORT - https://imgur.com/a/tkiLc)

This is a old fashioned DF player playing on a thin map, so its disorientating. More as it unravels

[Max™]

Except the ethics isn't fine, I've got goblins modded to get rid of the annoying kill neutral behavior (amusing though it may be) and stuff like slavery/eating sapients as acceptable, elves in vanilla come with eating sapient kills as acceptable, ethically they should be able in adventurer mode to kill someone and eat them, graveyards have nothing to do with that.

When I visit a tomb with bodies laying in it, I can eat those bodies with a dwarf from a dwarf civ with eating sapients as unthinkable.

You're confusing the situation by taking part of a fort mode bug and claiming that the broader bug where units will kill and devour their foes in legends mode but an adventurer won't.

I'm pretty sure if you retired an adventurer werebeast somewhere long enough then you could find them eating people in legends mode, but the moment you unretired them it doesn't work anymore, even if ethically they should be able to do so.

As I illustrated conclusively by taking control of an actual wild animal with no civ or entity and no values or ethics at all, there is a universal block applied where dead_dwarf=true prevents the consumption/use of bodies whether it should or not.

[FantasticDorf]

Max, the graveyard stockpile (or any stockpile) doesn't have to be in fortress mode to activate collection gathering. If you kill your own adventure  character on a player site, your corpse will be sorted into the graveyard stockpile (if that makes sense during the 2 week interim between revisiting that retired fortress).

World events of cannibalism/producing goods out of sentients are detached from the game. But everything in fortress and in first person adventure mode is affected by dead dwarf by actively dying on the map infront of you. Your ethics are unhindered, but the dead_dwarf obstructs, once you cleared the meat in your lion example of dead_dwarf you could eat it there and then.

Dead_dwarf=true is the conclusive evidence of it being set to the graveyard stockpile, because sentient corpses have become the graveyard stockpile item type rather than sorting ethically into refuse everything is funneled no matter what mode (Arena/Adventure/Fortress) because the central game system is broken.

EDIT - I've checked and i can't see stockpiles in the adventure building menu so far, so i imagine it might not be possible but the idea that if you did have a ability to create a graveyard stockpile in adventure mode that'd be where your sentient kills would be sorted regardless.

Placing stockpiles in arena mode would claim sentient corpses for the graveyard stockpile
With the previous issue, i tried setting the child to "Forest" and then reverting then trying "left" again, this time the child seemingly went away for good and i thought i lost them (the petitions screen after accepting when they had 'left' cleared to say no more petitions pending)

Then the child turned up on site again with a brand new name. Apparently i had moved it to the visitor pool (confirmed traveller via gm)


> The child is suffering cavern adaptation but i think that's just normal. Other than that i can't get the child to re-apply or visit the tavern site i put out for them.

Dubious GM readings - Anybody know what flag3 Unk31 is? (turning it off doesn't seemingly change anything)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Max™]

Now, you might not have done as much fuckery with gm-editor as I have, so you can't be blamed for thinking stuff that seems like it's only a history.events entry is detached.

In fact if there is an entry that says a site had people mutilated and impaled on pikes, if you go there right after it happens you find bodies on pikes, if an entry says someone was devoured, it means a unit devoured them, some of the only events which are totally abstracted are the processions and festivals.

In theory if you saw someone fighting and wandered away, then checked legends and saw that it said they devoured their foe, when you return there won't be a body.

Right now though if you were to walk in as they were about to devour them, they'd have to stop and go "uh, this isn't what it looks like" as they licked the corpse.

You're still missing something though: the problem isn't that dead_dwarf=true is set, the problem is that there are units who should be able to horrify others by eating corpses while dead_dwarf=true is active.

Nobody cares if you eat something while dead_dwarf=false, elves shouldn't care if you eat something while dead_dwarf=true, neither should goblins, and both should be able to do this if they chose.

It went from being an ignored flag for adventurer units to being a priority flag for adventurer units when considering what they can eat.

There are other items where you get a "No, that's disgusting." response, and bodies should be the same if your ethics say so.

[FantasticDorf]

~snip~

I didn't mean so literally with detached site events (i know that stuff happens consequencially, but for the large part its not a in-game activity of it being done)

Whether they should or shouldn't care to eat while dead_dwarf true (eating combatants is a seperate matter since that can involve your own kind) is a matter for toady but as it stands its not normal.

If you hadn't killed the unit yourself and turned off dead_dwarf=true then that'd offend elves (because it seems they read kill lists as a ethic check) so that debunks your elf horrifying, and goblins don't care eitherway or have the values to make a opinion to care. It doesn't matter if they should be able to eat the meat, no matter what civ you play with any ethic set (i play as goblins and have tested as goblins with the full range ethic set) the dead_dwarf=true created by graveyard stockpiles STOPS the object products being eaten/used for any other function than burial

• Forcefully butchering the object in adventure mode/Arena is technically a exploit as graveyard stockpiles don't release materials, and subsequently all the materials are treated & prepared for corpse burial, including all the meat cartilage scales & bone which is put into the casket. After butchery its body is a extension of its products, as via gm on the "Corpse Objects" entry on the second page.

> When this bug with the graveyard is fixed or otherwise we can get a binpatch/plugin/other to turn off the graveyard stockpile, i would personally assure you that ALL sentient meat materials harvested infront of them would be edible instead of (nothing to see here folks) people wildly licking corpses & hunks of meat.

> You're mistaking the bug as a choice being decativated/perversed into not ethical, its more of a hard game barrier because all the described products come from corpses with dead_dwarf=true unless they are generated without it naturally (like tomb corpses) which you said yourself you can eat freely and i've in this thread tested and DO go into correct ethical refuse sites and ARE consumable on 43.05 with the correct ethic set.

> You can prove dead_dwarf=true was created or otherwise intended for stockpiles, because graves/headstones wont take entity members who aren't dead dwarf true, wild animals and non dead_dwarf sentients (hostile entities/invaders/intelligent megabeasts etc.) don't get burials. (contrary to when they do which is unintended behaviour of this bug, especially if they have names)

[muldrake]

It seems this should be on an individual level, with species ethics predominating, but there always being a possibility you have a Urist McDahmer who is totally okay with eating sapients.

And if this guy ends up as your chief butcher, watch out.

[Max™]

Again, bodies being set as belonging to a graveyard isn't a problem, it's a sensible idea, but more accurately you would say that graveyard stockpiles accept objects with dead_dwarf=true, set it to true on a block or sword and I bet it winds up in a graveyard.

Graveyards weren't introduced in 42.01, and they accepted objects with dead_dwarf=true as I recall. Pretty sure you said you tested it in 40.24 where we had graveyards and bodies got sorted into them as expected, and I'm pretty sure the flag was set when a unit died on screen.

It didn't prevent use or consumption for adventurers regardless of ethics in 40.24, which wasn't intended behavior.
It now prevents use or consumption for adventurers regardless of ethics in 43.05, which wasn't intended behavior either.

I don't recall anything changing specifically with graveyards, I never had a problem with my dorfs hauling the bodies of their friends to a coffin while the bodies of wildlife go to a different pile, but something big was done involve ethics/values and multi-species forts over the 42.01~43.05 cycle, and it seems like the change in a behavior which was previously bugged and should be ethics based to a new bugged state which still isn't ethics based was probably related to that ethics/values/multi-species change.

An item doesn't tell units not to eat it, if they did I imagine they'd be screaming about it while stuffed into a mug instead of going down like a big frothy cup of goblin corpses and caged units.

There is clearly an intended behavior which functions in legends mode, and there are tags in the entity_default which suggest it should be ethics controlled.

Does dead_dwarf=true keep units from hauling a corpse to the graveyard?
No?
Then that's working as intended.

Would it keep a fort of elves from eating their slain foes?
Yes.
That isn't working as intended.

[FantasticDorf]

Again, bodies being set as belonging to a graveyard isn't a problem, it's a sensible idea, but more accurately you would say that graveyard stockpiles accept objects with dead_dwarf=true, set it to true on a block or sword and I bet it winds up in a graveyard.

Graveyards weren't introduced in 42.01, and they accepted objects with dead_dwarf=true as I recall. Pretty sure you said you tested it in 40.24 where we had graveyards and bodies got sorted into them as expected, and I'm pretty sure the flag was set when a unit died on screen.

It didn't prevent use or consumption for adventurers regardless of ethics in 40.24, which wasn't intended behavior.
It now prevents use or consumption for adventurers regardless of ethics in 43.05, which wasn't intended behavior either.

I don't recall anything changing specifically with graveyards, I never had a problem with my dorfs hauling the bodies of their friends to a coffin while the bodies of wildlife go to a different pile, but something big was done involve ethics/values and multi-species forts over the 42.01~43.05 cycle, and it seems like the change in a behavior which was previously bugged and should be ethics based to a new bugged state which still isn't ethics based was probably related to that ethics/values/multi-species change.

An item doesn't tell units not to eat it, if they did I imagine they'd be screaming about it while stuffed into a mug instead of going down like a big frothy cup of goblin corpses and caged units.

Dead dwarf doesn't activate on all sentient units in 40.24 who were killed/have died, because it only naturally applies to pets & same entity intelligent members (I currently can't get a DFhack version - linux only on DFFD is incompatible) which doesn't even need dfhack to investigate because only citizens within that range will ever go there & get burial. Though for consistency it would be good to try and investigate.

> Additional proof of no dead_dwarf=true on that version would be the prior examples of slaughtering pet trolls for food/materials i've already posted on the thread with no need to decorate a burial since the materials would be stockpiled in 'refuse/corpses'. It is still possible to bury a pet troll who has died, but the graveyard behaviour in 42.01 onward is aggressive in assigning as soon as they die for any reason anywhere they drop dead actively in the world. In 40.24 It is identical to tame non-sentient pets virtually who also get pet graves purely because of graveyard behaviour.

• Pets being unbutcherable has been a constant bug for a long time because of this behaviour, being pulled out of refuse and into the graveyard stockpile with priority so that they can be prepped for pet-burial options which were added later. This issue report where a bear tooth gets bugged out on the way to burial (0009633: War animal's eye tooth carried between tomb and stockpile (endless loop).)
  
  > Wild animals & slaughtered pets in 43.05 don't carry dead_dwarf=true and funnel into the correct stockpiles, allowing the said materials to be used in a typical way.
  
  > You mention that the graveyard isnt new, i know that but this is the function of it being distorted and pulled over everything else, its meant to stop you butchering your own kind forcefully given the meat would be inethically worthless anyway (though for elves that's a bit tricky, unless they are choosy about the meat they eat they could eat same own meat they killed themselves, whether it would discriminate stockpiles or turn off prior 42.01 dead_dwarf is unknown)
  
  Sending the sword im not 100% sure since it never had a identity but ill get back to you and check with hopefully a inscribed headstone dedicated. Sending the sword which is the corpse object dropped by a sentient creature on the other hand may work i would say with some confidence based on a educated guess of the behavior i've seen already.
  
  

  It seems this should be on an individual level, with species ethics predominating, but there always being a possibility you have a Urist McDahmer who is totally okay with eating sapients.
  
  And if this guy ends up as your chief butcher, watch out.
  

  
  That's what [ETHIC:EAT_SAPIENT_OTHER:PERSONAL_MATTER] is implicatively supposed to do, but the races (goblins) lack the personal opinion values to make choices like that so just roll with it being positive anyway. Its a game design oversight. Setting lying to personal matter will make races touchy about the subject on a personal basis.
  
  Shilling myself i have a suggestion-fix for that here - http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=162504.0

[Max™]

Fuck me man I got the first few libraries needed for 40.24 and I'm stuck on the libGLEW.so.1.13 since arch wants to install the 64 bit version no matter what I try.

But, I did have a save handy so I went to one of my kills from 40.24, where one of my sapient-deity-impersonating dragon kills was and grabbed a chunk of meat, checked that dead_dwarf was false, then went to another site with a living sapient-deity-impersonating dragon, killed it, and checked the hunk of meat I picked up to find it had dead_dwarf set to true.

Here I am eating a test sample at the first site, grabbing a second chunk, heading to the second site to kill that dragon before grabbing a chunk and trying to eat them back to back.


I also checked one of the fort saves I had from 40.24 and sure enough there was a coffin with a buried pet inside that had dead_dwarf=true on it which I can't use now.

I knew this goblin my entire life:


I killed them in 40.24, and sure enough the corpse had dead_dwarf=false:


I killed another gob I had known my whole life after that just to confirm that no, I can't eat them like I just did our friend, because dead_dwarf=true gets set now for all sapients, and before only dwarves got it set.

One of the dwarves I killed in the same site who I had also known my whole life had dead_dwarf=true, even though they were a member of a goblin civ, which means that most likely every single dwarf I've eaten had dead_dwarf=true, and believe me, that's a very high number.

I used to enjoy skinning them and wearing their tanned hides after I got the reactions set up to do that, just like I used to do with dragons and elves and so forth.

Prior to 42.01 the presence of dead_dwarf=true didn't keep you from eating anyone, and it was only ever set for actual dwarves that died or maybe the main fort race if you modded others to be playable, either way it never mattered.

Now you get the behavior where goblins I killed before updating the save are edible, but goblins I kill afterwards are not, while dwarves with dead_dwarf=true which I killed before updating the save were edible, but now they are not, and are so far the only examples I can find of previously killed units which I can't eat now.


Or maybe not.

Looking through other saves I found one with an adventurer I didn't have to unretire like the one I tested with above.

This adventurer is wearing dwarf leather clothing, and this adventurer killed a necromancer outside of a tower where the body wasn't reanimated:


That body doesn't have dead_dwarf=true:


Just to check though I did kill another dwarf necromancer and as expected dead_dwarf=true was on, so I think unretire flipped those flags when it was checking items or something.

[FantasticDorf]

So your research tells us that the ethics will sort out the dead_dwarf=true in consideration to sites, and re-affirms that pets and self entities are correctly sorted & buried (pets are supposed to be buried, i've never looked inside a casket with GM editor) in that 40.24 version.

> I think the pet with GM editor enabled is kept inside the casket by dead_dwarf=true, hence when the creature suddenly becomes undead or re-alive like a mummy it will burst out of the casket with dead_dwarf false. Likewise if a part of it becomes reanimated via a evil biome because it is not interred, the entire body will reanimate (joint together by dead_dwarf=true & corpse objects forcefully) & jump OUT even if interred properly creating a zombie swarm of skin nails & hair etc.

> Reading a bit more closely, overriding dead_dwarf true as you point out does signify that the actual process of dead_dwarf went under changes too.

That actually supports your point partially for ethics jumbling up somewhere along the line or atleast the possiblity that ethics can effect it in this way, im impressed. However i do have another piece of information below that i need to share with you that could crack open why the graveyard behaviour changed in the first place rather than what it does.

I think i have discovered how visitors work & why they (all sentients) are being added to the graveyard stockpile.

Explicitly visitors have become the [PET_EXOTIC] type for intelligent beings without having to be tame; basically in 40.24 when you embark with a intelligent [PET_EXOTIC] race they will practically be free intelligent civilians, now adding visitor types as a new kind of pet that can be 'Tamed' in a petition would make sense, but there's a problem that virtually all creatures would be subject to the [PET_EXOTIC] treatment as a background conflict causing all sorts of problems.

> Which would explain why you can't set [PET_EXOTIC] manually in the raws, but [PET] works fine, no full non pet sentient materials will end up in the embark material loadout either so no dingomen meat (embark as goblins in 40.24 with high savagery and hope your market sites are on savage)

• Pet intelligent can't be set to jobs or occupations, however if they were exotic & moved into the resident via a petition without being tame because they are under the control of the vistor=true they virtually become free citizens, Toady has managed to cheese visitors into working.

> Trolls are [PET_EXOTIC] by default for evil animal civs because of the [EVIL] & [SLOW_LEARNER] tag, which is why they & all other evil slow learners (glacier men, ogres etc.) also have the [PET_EXOTIC] full civilian screen but only the ability via slow learner to do hauling & (buggy) occupation work.

• Creating heroes must apply some form of activation for this alternative [PET_EXOTIC] function.

In conclusion.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

$$MILLION DOLLAR ANSWER$$ SENTIENTS ARE IMPLICIT PETS, PETS ARE SENT TO BE BURIED IN THE GRAVEYARD $$MILLION DOLLAR ANSWER$$

Though its a bit hasty to assume that's the be all & end all answer to what's causing this problem, as its shown there are atleast 3 other background bugs going on while we investigate this.

[Putnam]

What's a graveyard? Do you mean corpse stockpiles, which don't have burial at all?

[FantasticDorf]

What's a graveyard? Do you mean corpse stockpiles, which don't have burial at all?

Graveyard is the corpse stockpile (stockpile (y)) the name was changed in version 0.31.17, it does have burial and is directly responsible for sorting out what bodies go into graves and from Max's research, keeping them there via dead_dwarf=true. (away from the refuse stockpile)

For reference's sake we're calling it the archaic name of the graveyard stockpile to avoid confusion with the refuse stockpile subcategory of corpses, which is for non-same entity sapients.

> Basically there are two corpses stockpiles, named exactly the same but do completely different functions.

[Putnam]

What's a graveyard? Do you mean corpse stockpiles, which don't have burial at all?

it does have burial and is directly responsible for sorting out what bodies go into graves

No, it doesn't. I have never once used a corpse stockpile and burial in burial receptacles has always gone perfectly for me.

[FantasticDorf]

What's a graveyard? Do you mean corpse stockpiles, which don't have burial at all?

it does have burial and is directly responsible for sorting out what bodies go into graves

No, it doesn't. I have never once used a corpse stockpile and burial in burial receptacles has always gone perfectly for me.

Please read the thread. (Or talk to Max, we've been having a healthy conversation about the subject)

Dead_dwarf=true assigns the corpse to the graveyard stockpile passively as its 'item type' (rather than the refuse stockpile) which is why it can be buried at all with or without the stockpile. Prior to burial the object would be stored in the graveyard stockpile.

This applies to pets, same entity members & bugged all other sentients which is the bug we are discussing. The content has already been covered in the pages 3-5 of this thread where we initially spoke about it.

Dead dwarf=true directly lets you inscribe slabs & burials, it having a distinguishable name makes it easier.



This is a poor example, but a slaughtered pet intelligent pet prior to 42.01 (which is 40.24) which has been pinpointed to be the origin of this bug, would not deserve a burial or slab because they do not have dead_dwarf=true and therefore are edible & product usable. (with correct ethic set)

[Putnam]

I'm saying that you're overcomplicating things and assigning logic to areas that are not where they actually lie. The corpse stockpile and burial probably use the same logic to determine if something belongs there, but it's almost certainly not the case that it is the corpse stockpile determining what goes into burial. It's almost definitely something in the unit, like, say, the dead_dwarf flag, which we've already determined is being assigned incorrectly, which I would say is the whole of the bug from what we can actually determine and thus needs no more research.