Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[FantasticDorf]

That doesn't make sense, in both mine & nish's example the dwarf & alligator man were butchered (so all the material from the corpse has been removed) yet maintains as a unit standing around as normal. What you are suggesting is that it shouldn't be possible to revive them in the first place yet there they are seemingly unaffected with their phantom BP (seems reasonable enough, even in common sense), when, trusting your word they should be falling over dead instantly because they don't have a brain/body/organs or support living with their creature file without as you point out being buggy.

> Soon as alligator man with 'no upper body gets any form of physical trauma, they begin to compute they are being hurt again & drop dead, and the rotted skeletal trogg who got revived remains to think & make decisions and move about the caverns trying to return to its wilderness population

• Thats not nessecarily true either, zombies for instance wouldn't work or be able to be read as having BP parts missing instead being listed as 'has upper body missing'. If you're talking about butchered & revived creatures then that's a fine umberella term for having all your body parts destroyed but its not a clear cut case for dying from dismemberment & then being revived via necromancery or DFhack gm editor.

Something interesting, has it always been that sentient parts were rejected for refuse stockpiles instead of 'corpses' (usually direct friendly civ members or dwarves) because the option is present in the menu but different in practice, ampibianmen for example a sentient race are first on the refuse list but cannot actually be moved to that stockpile when killed because of the sentient rules imposed by this bug (or otherwise affected by dead_dwarf). Those trolls I slaughtered a few posts back shouldn't even be being filtered into the civ-corpses stockpile, where all of the BP materials are remaining.

> This is the same behavior of our bug, but done upon a living amputation patient as far back as 0.31.01 where the severed limb of a dwarf doesn't have anywhere to be because the relevant dwarf is still alive.

It remains reminiscient of that rotting test i did on a trogg, in which the trogg's head seperated from its body began to rot & also triggered the main body to rot too, it may be that the corpse of the dwarf who has not yet died would be in a state of rotting simultaneously. It is also another indication of over posessive BP on things like teeth & horn which are currently bugged because they are technically amputatable/removable anatomy.

Something else is that corpses on the refuse stockpile & official 'sentient' corpses (which used to be 'graveyard' until it was changed in 0.31.17) are named the same, so if there is any code regression or otherwise issue then this syntax might be choosing the same target for all types sentient and then setting dead_dwarf which is meant to protect intelligents on them rather than discriminate.

• Least that is how it seems because prior, refuse for horns/ivory etc had to be added in about that timescale (0.31.16) including objects such as sentient nail, troll horns etc. and there's no actual menu for choosing what goes to the 'graveyard' civ corpses where all the sentient parts turn up instead of being sorted out. So that would be a legitimate answer why all these parts are being funnelled into 1 general stockpile instead of going to the proper stockpiles (which already ALLOW them to be there with or without ethics)
  
  > Which further pushes forward that if the corpse object is being pushed into the graveyard stockpile where it shouldn't be (instead in refuse unless you are a civ member) & all the BP parts are being read incorrectly via overposession then all the BP parts would be illegitimate too, though that doesn't 100 explain why you can't use animal horns/teeth.
  
  Conclusion of the above or TLDR
  
  I strongly now believe the change in version 42. that toady forgot to do with sentients about was having dead_dwarf=true apply to all creatures that go to the 'graveyard' corpses stockpile, however this is a flawed fix, because this also means pets (who in prior version went to graveyard) & changes toady made meant that it also meant all other sentient creatures too.
  
  > corpses (graveyard) & corpses (refuse) are named the same, differing the names if somewhere along the line they decided the graveyard was the same target might fix non-civvies going there alternatively not to mention pets by popular demand not going there too so its renewable.
  
  As soon as they die, they would be moved to the graveyard stockpile (just as its 'type' of object despite being able to be stored in refuse), and products made from dead_dwarf=true that are inherited are also moved to the corpses stockpile, the whole connected BP thing might be overlap with other bugs. As soon as the dead_dwarf is lifted, the products enter normal circulation and if you can eat sentients, the meat gets moved to the meat pile etc plus lose personification/personal id upon being processed (troll totem example, made out of a named skull instead of naming the totem like 'Nish bone crossbow etc') so really the graveyard stockpile seems to be a root issue given that everything else with dead_dwarf disabled has a relevant place and remains in meat/parts/etc. stockpiles.
  
  > Its only a DFwiki entry, but the changelog for 'tracking dead bodies & items in the wild' in 0.34 may be relevant to the implementation of dead_dwarf=true's origin
  
  > There is no immediately common link between dead_dwarf=true and the games systems, but there is a common link between all the product (corpses, parts etc) and where they turn up & how they behave.

[Putnam]

That doesn't make sense, in both mine & nish's example the dwarf & alligator man were butchered (so all the material from the corpse has been removed) yet maintains as a unit standing around as normal. What you are suggesting is that it shouldn't be possible to revive them in the first place yet there they are seemingly unaffected with their phantom BP (seems reasonable enough, even in common sense), when, trusting your word they should be falling over dead instantly because they don't have a brain/body/organs or support living with their creature file without as you point out being buggy.

I am saying nothing of the sort. The BPs aren't "moved" to the corpse, they stay with the unit. Reviving makes a new unit using the corpse part. Resurrection revives the old unit using corpse info. DFhack resurrection explicitly gives the unit back all its parts.

[FantasticDorf]

That doesn't make sense, in both mine & nish's example the dwarf & alligator man were butchered (so all the material from the corpse has been removed) yet maintains as a unit standing around as normal. What you are suggesting is that it shouldn't be possible to revive them in the first place yet there they are seemingly unaffected with their phantom BP (seems reasonable enough, even in common sense), when, trusting your word they should be falling over dead instantly because they don't have a brain/body/organs or support living with their creature file without as you point out being buggy.

I am saying nothing of the sort. The BPs aren't "moved" to the corpse, they stay with the unit. Reviving makes a new unit using the corpse part. Resurrection revives the old unit using corpse info. DFhack resurrection explicitly gives the unit back all its parts.

But the only change that is happening is that i have personally not used resurrection that i think you are referring to, i have via GM editor set the quality of 'killed=true' to false as to revert death but they are still horribly inflicted with the BP they had & remain fragile

> The gibbets and bones of the alligator man were on the floor beneath them because it was revived after it had be butchered with arena controls ((k)->(a)), it was just a mesh of a BP layered upon nothing, a empty shell of a unit.

Staying with the unit is the relevant point to what im saying, the BP has rotted away (or in my example cases a head has been cleaved away) and t meaning no relevant organs) and suddenly they are not healed (though the rate of natural regeneration may be dubious) because they could not physically support living without a centre of thought which is instant death & a air supply by things being buggy & not calculated on revival without a trigger to recognise those elements are missing.

Most of the triggers related to health only fire when the event (such as a weapon getting lodged or beggining to choke from a lungstab) happens rather than remain in constant monitoring of the health state, to which then it would be justified that you couldn't revive without fully or partially healing a creature.


Is there anything we can do to alter the corpses stockpile to test my hypothesis that its a syntax error (meant to be sent to refuse but being intercepted and activated for dead_dwarf true on graveyard acceptable sentients & pets which is the common link, as non fortress sentients are not the intended recipients to that pile nor are any of their products.)

[Random_Dragon]

So, I'd like FantasticDorf to test something to see whether another conjuecture (that at present is highly suspect) has any bearing on this bug.

Peasant skeletons found in tombs are generally always valid to eating or use for crafting. They evidently also tend to lack the mysterious dead_dwarf flag.

My request is to embark on a human tomb (if it is still possible) and test whether this generic human skeletons are placed in refuse or graveyard stockpiles. If they end up in graveyard stockpiles that that means whatever tells the game to put a corpse in the grave stockpile is not dependent on whether dead_dwarf is true.

This result would also be in line with my having proven that dwarven corpses in .40.24 could in fact be used in crafting, meaning that their placement in graveyards had no effect back then.

[FantasticDorf]

So, I'd like FantasticDorf to test something to see whether another conjuecture (that at present is highly suspect) has any bearing on this bug.

Peasant skeletons found in tombs are generally always valid to eating or use for crafting. They evidently also tend to lack the mysterious dead_dwarf flag.

My request is to embark on a human tomb (if it is still possible) and test whether this generic human skeletons are placed in refuse or graveyard stockpiles. If they end up in graveyard stockpiles that that means whatever tells the game to put a corpse in the grave stockpile is not dependent on whether dead_dwarf is true.

This result would also be in line with my having proven that dwarven corpses in .40.24 could in fact be used in crafting, meaning that their placement in graveyards had no effect back then.

Sure, sounds like a lark. Ill let you know how i get on.

Maybe ill make a meal of them given i like to play with a goblin civ with the appropriate ethics outlook.

EDIT - Tiny problem, i triggered a mass mummy uprising, and re-deading them might invalidate the dead_dwarf tag.



I could get around it by outright deleting or editing the main mummy ressurector. *they are all dead_dwarf=false (slip of tongue i meant false), and i have simultaneous grave stockpile & refuse stockpile*

> The final prognosis after isolating the refuse stockpile is that they DO go to the refuse stockpile with dead_dwarf=false, which is common sense really given meat will go to the meat pile with dead_dwarf=false. (I can't actually recover them, but the goblins only become motivated to move when the bodies are unforbidden to put them on the refuse pile)

*urgh i've said dead-dwarf=true so much today, i mean meat dead_dwarf=false will go to the correct stockpiles, i determined to get you a picture of the corpses on the correct pile to set it in stone.*

[Random_Dragon]

Hmm. Peculiar, but that does support the idea that graveyard behavior is CURRENTLY linked to dead_dwarf.

Which is weird given this bug I'm after didn't care about whether a corpse would go in any given stockpile in 40.24. If anything this just raises more questions than it answers.

[FantasticDorf]

Hmm. Peculiar, but that does support the idea that graveyard behavior is CURRENTLY linked to dead_dwarf.

Which is weird given this bug I'm after didn't care about whether a corpse would go in any given stockpile in 40.24. If anything this just raises more questions than it answers.

Few posts up in my long post i addressed the fact that why are corpses of non site members even being funnelled into the graveyard anyway, given they have a place in the refuse menu (amphibian men etc) which is why i think its a syntax issue because they both share the same name, (game tries to sort the bodies into corpses, puts into graveyard, and resulting dead_dwarf=true invalidates materials)

> Still doesn't explain why wild animal external BP parts are unusable, my verdict is that's a seperate bug altogether thats somehow crossed the lines here. I remember a time when horns & such worked fine, finding a reasonable milestone would be helpful.

Pets for example are graveyard *acceptable*, but can be slaughtered (but not butchered, key difference) and eaten fine, trolls can be sheared for fur while alive is fine, so its not a ethics issue because this happens across all the ethics spectrum.

[Random_Dragon]

Oh wow. So all these "handling of sapients" stuff is messed up in far more ways than I first thought.

Thanks for the !!SCIENCE!! though, even if it likely doesn't get us any closer to sorting any bugs out. ._.

[Max™]

To point something out: Nish was by no means a typical example, nor useful for working out what intended or default behavior was. She was an atrocity enabled by reckless use of gm-editor, fell strangemood forcing, and at one point the murder and attempted butchery of a ghost which would have worked if there were anything there to use I suspect.

[FantasticDorf]

Oh wow. So all these "handling of sapients" stuff is messed up in far more ways than I first thought.

Thanks for the !!SCIENCE!! though, even if it likely doesn't get us any closer to sorting any bugs out. ._.

Thanks for listening. I actually proved this without knowing even further back in the thread. *EDIT - Or maybe i kept it to myself & forgot to share the find in fear of coming across a bit obnoxious, i just proofread my previous posts again to make sure eitherway the method is below*

I live slaughtered a troll (buggily) watched its parts go to the graveyard stockpile, i then gave it a name post death by tracing the ID (which the skulll & bones adopted) then released dead_dwarf and made a totem out of the named skull = no more named BP part.

So you could say that Nish's bone crossbow is a fluke because it was forcefully crafted via a mood, while a kosher non dead_dwarf material would have been generic lower case "dwarf bone crossbow" *Ninja'd by Max*


Tested on milestone version 40.24 prior to the Tavern update and it is CONFIRMED, that dead_dwarf isn't affecting functions in that release and non own civilian corpses correctly stack in the refuse piles. It wasn't hard to mod goblins to be playable on that earlier version, just copy paste a expedition leader noble & remove the replace mayor tag, and then run with some Trolls.

> Ivory is still restricted, so BP bugs with teeth/ivory is very old, but ALL other butchered goods are usable.

To save space the results are within this spoiler.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Loadout - just to confirm to you i have the right ethics & access to livestock


Said ivory is unusable but brought to the workshop (after the troll was live slaughtered & materials successfully gathered)


Bones are craftable (not sorted into graveyard, into refuse) & lose the name becoming lowercase despite "Troll" being the creatures personal name (there's wild differences between that version & the tavern version check it out)


Meat sorted into stockpile & barrels, i only brought generic troll meat with me on embark & this is slaughtered troll meat

Interestingly the troll can be gelded & slaughtered like a normal animal (upper photo) but when compared to 43.05 (lower photo) it is now treated like a intelligent unit and you have to buggily press (s) to prompt the live slaughtering action



> My further line of speculation is that the visitor code or some kind of code regression might have triggered this bug to appear,  some other notable behaviors as something major seems to have changed (semi-intelligents & animals act like sentients & have emotional overloads & responses)

I went ahead later to try again and changed the Troll creature's raws to include [INTELLIGENT] (removing slow learner) & added[COMMON_DOMESTIC] so that they were guaranteed to appear, and to eliminate whether the fact they were usable was purely because they were.



No difference between semi & intelligent pets for slaughtering on this version. (I still need a creature to die for butchering, but the prognosis is good)

> Intelligent [COMMON_DOMESTIC] pets are not citizens also unlike the new current versions, suggesting the visitor system applying for petitions changed things

The tavern update seems to have broken a lot of these things in that explicit time-frame, so my eye is on how traveller/vistors are overlapping on the systems and whether the necessity to add visitors to the corpse stockpile might have anything to do with it.

[Max™]

Previously the default behavior seemed to resemble the ethical constraints of the goblin entity, you kill someone or someone else kills someone and you wanna eat their kidney, that's on you, whether you were a dwarf or elf or gob or whatnot.

Now it seems more like the default dwarf entity, eating sapients is unthinkable.

The biggest change I can think of that might be related was some of the fiddling around done to allow multi-species forts with properly integrated non-dwarf citizens who can perform labors, possess rooms, get buried properly, and have strange moods if the tag is present.

The transition of several tokens from entity to creature and the addition of creature tags which cover things that may have previously seemed more like entity tokens may have ended up with a bit of code being changed or enabled or linked in to creature behavior (rather than entity ethics) that made the dead_dwarf[true] state forbid consumption/use.

Where previously it may have been intended as a link to the ethic state which didn't work, having it covered as part of the creature behavior would explain why it went from universally allowed to universally forbidden: both states are bugged, and the intended behavior looks to be for the flag to have a tie to your ethics/values that lets an elf adventurer eat someone they slay, yet be disgusted by the thought of eating someone their companion slew, a goblin could nosh on either, and a dwarf would find both extremes disgusting (assuming they were raised in their default civs) like the entity raw specifics.

Except there isn't actually a "eat sapients" value so it only influences things like wars being started over it and offscreen devouring of slain foes.

[FantasticDorf]

Ahh, ninja'd by max. I've updated my response with some new research i was doing while you were typing your response.

> It has nothing to do with ethics as far as im aware, its just the sorting & protection of bodies from what i can see, even goblins with [REQUIRED] are shut out, to stop the dwarves or any race from self mutilating their own kind or being sorted into refuse (because goblins have to have dwarf piles etc.) the dead_dwarf renders them unusable & applicable for engraving headstones (hence why post 42. each intelligent unit can be engraved)

I only just noticed i can pasture (even the fully intelligent) trolls too on 40.24 which is also not a option for 43.05 (whom the trolls can only be burrowed to restrict them to a area) so in all actuality, the previous version exhibits normal intended behaviour & the new version is buggy & abnormal.

[Putnam]

I thought that we had determined that the entire bug was that ethics are ignored when it comes to allowing individuals or civilizations to use sentient products?

[FantasticDorf]

I thought that we had determined that the entire bug was that ethics are ignored when it comes to allowing individuals or civilizations to use sentient products?

Not really, no.

Goblins can freely use sentient products (troll meat etc) if they are imported (which is a ethic check, trolls are also culturally appropriate if goblins wont eat themselves for eating sentient meat, trolls eat other troll meat etc.), local site products gathered from sentients/pets are denied by being queued up to the graveyard stockpile which applies dead_dwarf in order to protect what it thinks is a core entity member.

> Playing as goblins - Goblins go to graveyard, dwarves go to refuse stockpile = dwarf tallow roasts.
> Playing as dwarves - Dwarves go to graveyard, goblins go to refuse stockpile = and stay at refuse stockpile to rot until dumped by the player

(As intended, and pets are under the protection of dead_dwarf and haven't been butcherable since 40.24 because they too are graveyard only, so you cannot profess to not having the ethics to not eat animals)

Remove the graveyard stockpile from the game structure (i've asked the DFhack subforum about whether a plugin would be possible)  and all corpses go to refuse. All of them.

• Zombies for example, goblins can butcher goblin zombies but the meat will sit in the refuse stockpile because they can't actually eat goblins (because zombification bypasses it) as goblin meat. Rejected sentient or same entity member meat is meant to go in the refuse stockpile

> But theoretically to the graveyard structure, butchering something in that stockpile (which should be protected by dead_dwarf )should be impossible so the materials act strange & inherit the buggy issue because they are meant to return & stay to be protected.

> If you want solid proof, you can butcher the affected parts (skulls etc) in 43.05's arena mode, and they'll refresh to the bottom of the list because they are listed as being seperate corpse object graveyard objects. (so technically you can write a memoriam for a skull, alas poor hamlet i knew ye well) but it'll all be the same unit ID.

Back in the 43.05 version here we have a fitting engraving for a troll which is currently resting in bits while its corpse objects (it was live slaughtered) are in the graveyard stockpile.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

All the world counts for being a zone and stockpiles are omnipresently in the background of the game structure even while playing adventure or arena mode. No matter where in the game world you kill a intelligent (unless its generated already dead like tombs) you will be in a applicable area and the object will be demanded for the graveyard stockpile & therefore dead_dwarf true

[Max™]

I thought that we had determined that the entire bug was that ethics are ignored when it comes to allowing individuals or civilizations to use sentient products?

Well, it does seem that way, but like I tried to explain, it looks like the ethics are intended to determine how a unit responds to dead_dwarf values. The behavior previously was in fact that all units acted like goblins do regarding dead_dwarf, you couldn't individually forbid an adventurer from being able to eat the brains of their friends, but you could keep a civ from embarking with prepared dwarf brain.

Now you can't enable an adventurer to eat the brain of their friends without untoggling that flag, even when they SHOULD be able to do so ethically, indeed even making obligate cannibals with [EAT_SAPIENT_x:REQUIRED] and so forth won't work, but you WOULD be able to embark with prepared dwarf brain or goblin brain or whatever.

Then I did a bit of hypothesizing about why this change happened, and it seems plausible that the shakeup of tokens and such involved in allowing other races to experience moods and acquire dwarven ethics and whatnot plus the moving around of various creature/entity aspects back and forth. Values are an entity token but the data is stored in the unit personality, while ethics are only entity tokens without a presence in the individual unit, and it just happened that in the switchover from 40.24 to 42.01 we acquired a new default state regarding becoming a cannibal, probably some sort of equine virus that jumped the species gap...