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Judaism

0 (0%)

Christianity

17 (23.3%)

Islam

1 (1.4%)

Hinduism

0 (0%)

Taoism

0 (0%)

Buddhism

0 (0%)

Scientology

2 (2.7%)

Other (please tell)

7 (9.6%)

Athiest

35 (47.9%)

Undecided

1 (1.4%)

Agnostic

10 (13.7%)

Total Members Voted: 70

[Descan]

As is a continuous refrain with Francis, there's nothing new or tolerant about his stances. He's just aware of the church's inherent bigotry and does his best to rhetorically soften it. The RCC has been plying the "you don't have to be executed or burn in hell for being gay, but you need to feel bad and deny your true feelings to be saved" line for decades.

I dunno, as far as meaningless platitudes goes, "god has made you as you and loves you that way," while still pretty devoid of meaning, is still points a bit towards one way and not the other.

I mean, he definitely didn't go so far as to out and out say "God has made you homosexual and that's okay, he loves you regardless and wants you to do what is best for you," or something. Eh. The Church is as political as they come.

[TD1]

Religion is the opiate of the masses. Meaning, of those who go to mass.

Ha. Ha. Haaa.

Anyway. I was thinking of Hans' comment, and considering why religion is so prevalent in the world. I came to the conclusion that it's primarily based around sticks. Christianity, for instance, has a big, flaming stick - hell. Were there a religion that did not have a stick or a carrot of some shade, no one (or rather very few) would believe in it. They get nothing out of it. They do not get punished for incorrect practice, or rewarded for an accurate observation of its tenets.

So, with that in mind, religion is so prevalent because mankind is greedy and scared. Though, in kinder light, 'greedy' may be reinterpreted as 'hopeful'.

The above thought then led to how Christianity managed to survive in the religious melee. I came to the conclusion that Christianity has both a juicy carrot (heaven, loving daddy, being able to meet all the dead people you love, and immortality) and a big stick (hell, estrangement from the loving daddy, a barring from seeing loved ones, physical torment). It also says that man should spread this religion, but as this is parsed in terms of reward and punishment it need not get a separate heading. This led to its adoption and its observation. It led to Children being born into it and being told that it is truth. Other, less reward-focused doctrinal systems fell by the wayside because they did not have a clear message surrounding what the practitioner can gain and what they may lose.

My two cents and all that. Still, I can't help but think of religion in this light. A system which subsides on the fear and greed of humanity. It is no wonder that when people perceive the Bible to tell them that the world is flat, then they believe it despite evidence. To do otherwise would invite falling pray to the stick and abandoning the carrot.

[Egan_BW]

If there's a stick then we aught to find a sword to use on the fellow holding it.

[Hanslanda]

That'd be a headline.

Atheists Kill God With Particle Cannons

[TD1]

Nietzsche Laughing in his Grave, Cooing "Yes My Beautiful Ubermensch, Kick Some Deific Ass" In Between Sporadic Gasps of Air.

[Rolan7]

52.6% of forum voters are atheist. I find this perversely pleasing.

It's nice to not have religion interjected into otherwise non-religious conversations. Other than that, no biggie really.

Yeah.  I'm glad that religious people are here, because this is... wow, just about the only place I can rely on a respectful conversation nowadays?  I learn a lot from the conversations on this forum (even/especially when I don't post) but that wouldn't happen in a monoculture.  I think the times I get most upset are when I think ideas or people are getting "ganged up" on...  Even though I usually agree with the majority position, here.

That said, it is nice not to be bullied by religion like in real life.  Organized religion is still scary, still strong but waiting, still subsidized by the government.
It was a major breakthrough for me to become at all spiritual, after having to interact for so long with organized religions.  And I still respect peer-reviewed results first, because... of course.
Edit:  Which means I worship gods-of-the-gap, heh.

[Hanslanda]

Oh yes I appreciate both religious and irreligious forumites. They're our community. It's nice to be reminded that many viewpoints and walks of life can get along and congregate. Too much of the world is "Fear the (insert demographic)!!!"

[Rolan7]

The goblin, the kobold!

[McTraveller]

I came to the conclusion that it's primarily based around sticks. Christianity, for instance, has a big, flaming stick - hell. Were there a religion that did not have a stick or a carrot of some shade, no one (or rather very few) would believe in it. They get nothing out of it. They do not get punished for incorrect practice, or rewarded for an accurate observation of its tenets.

So, with that in mind, religion is so prevalent because mankind is greedy and scared. Though, in kinder light, 'greedy' may be reinterpreted as 'hopeful'.

The above thought then led to how Christianity managed to survive in the religious melee. I came to the conclusion that Christianity has both a juicy carrot (heaven, loving daddy, being able to meet all the dead people you love, and immortality) and a big stick (hell, estrangement from the loving daddy, a barring from seeing loved ones, physical torment). It also says that man should spread this religion, but as this is parsed in terms of reward and punishment it need not get a separate heading. This led to its adoption and its observation. It led to Children being born into it and being told that it is truth. Other, less reward-focused doctrinal systems fell by the wayside because they did not have a clear message surrounding what the practitioner can gain and what they may lose.

My two cents and all that. Still, I can't help but think of religion in this light. A system which subsides on the fear and greed of humanity. It is no wonder that when people perceive the Bible to tell them that the world is flat, then they believe it despite evidence. To do otherwise would invite falling pray to the stick and abandoning the carrot.

That's a bit of a generalization on Christianity - unfortunately that's the one that's in the media, though, so I understand why it's a prevalent view. 

[Rolan7]

I have to ask you to explain why it *isn't* about the stick.  The transformation of Judaism to Christianity is a concept I'm interested in. 
For full disclosure, I (still) have a lot of sympathy for the Cathars who believed that the god of Jesus was apart from the god of the Jews.

The New Testament introduces the idea of Hell for the first time, and for the first time condemns us all to it.  With imagery of grain being flayed and vague fires.

While I have always loved modern Christians who aren't Literalists, growing up, the message of the Bible seems pretty clear to me.  The New Testament admitted that Jews weren't the only good race.  Which uh, yeah that's a good step.

But then goes on that we all are damned (over all of time, which raises some questions, vaguely addressed in Dante's fanfic)

And then everyone can be saved...  but only if they believe?
Look, I have the utmost respect for my Christian friends.  They believe their things, I believe in mine.  We have mutual respect.
But if we're having a discussion, here, I don't understand the Christian position.  I'm open to discussion.

(Cathars best religion though!  Anti-satanists!!)

[McTraveller]

I have to ask you to explain why it *isn't* about the stick.  The transformation of Judaism to Christianity is a concept I'm interested in.

At the highest level, it's because a state of condemnation isn't a "punishment" - it's just the natural state of being when humans choose to put themselves in charge instead of God.  Put slightly another way - God lets people live in a world without himself, he doesn't force people to blindly believe him.

 
For full disclosure, I (still) have a lot of sympathy for the Cathars who believed that the god of Jesus was apart from the god of the Jews.

The New Testament introduces the idea of Hell for the first time, and for the first time condemns us all to it.  With imagery of grain being flayed and vague fires.

While I have always loved modern Christians who aren't Literalists, growing up, the message of the Bible seems pretty clear to me.  The New Testament admitted that Jews weren't the only good race.  Which uh, yeah that's a good step.

But then goes on that we all are damned (over all of time, which raises some questions, vaguely addressed in Dante's fanfic)

And then everyone can be saved...  but only if they believe?
Look, I have the utmost respect for my Christian friends.  They believe their things, I believe in mine.  We have mutual respect.
But if we're having a discussion, here, I don't understand the Christian position.  I'm open to discussion.

(Cathars best religion though!  Anti-satanists!!)

I think this just warrants a question - what parts of the Christian position do you not understand specifically?  Is it the question of how could a supposedly loving God condemn anyone to hell for all eternity? Is it that the only hook is you have to "believe" rather than take some physical action?  Is it the concept of the resurrection?  Or is it about how there are so many disparate denominations?

[TD1]

It is a natural state of being brought on by God, who created all natural laws.

Whether or not God... "forces" ... people to believe in him, the Bible presents a very big "or else."

And I feel that "state of condemnation" is too mild a descriptor for what is obviously a punishment.
Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Matthew explicitly calls it a punishment 25:46

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

Jude1:7

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

2Peter 2:9

the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

I could go on.

[Egan_BW]

Yeah, not buying "it's not a punishment" here.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Yeah, not buying "it's not a punishment" here.

I mean, from a Christian perspective, since everyone is basically just born tainted and mildly evil, you just kind of are condemned until redeems I guess??? I dont know, I don't remember much of the specifics from my pre-atheism sunday school days.

[Egan_BW]

Hah, yeah, sky-daddy isn't beating you with a stick, he's just set up a machine to hit you with a stick. Totally different.