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[Rince Wind]

I think it is basically an unlimited trial. You can't fly ships bigger than cruisers, can't use all the t2 stuff, can't skill all the skills.
You can have a nice frigate pilot and some fun. What happens when you already have a character that can use that though, is only the gear restricted then?

I wouldn't mind dying in a Rifter again. And the money I still have should last me a long time if I only use t1. But grinding for more would be annoying woth those ships.


On that front, are Incursions still a good money maker in HS? I used to fly with self styled elite groups in my Machariel. Never understood those that didn't do anything else though.
And the most fun I had with incursions was close to the beginning, when stuff wasn't figured out yet, when I could take my Mealstrom and join a group that had a Cynabal in it. Not that much money, but still a lot more than lvl 4s. And I think I could only do lvl 3s at that time.

[Ozyton]

With so many MMOs about these days I wonder what it is about MMOs specifically that attracts people than a more conventional multiplayer game. Does having dozens/hundreds of people you aren't going to interact with filling the screen make the game more enjoyable? What about the large semi-seamless open worlds? Is it just the towns where you can show off costumes you've paid for... that people will probably not notice since the towns are, for the most part, very pretty menu screens/hub worlds you walk around in? I would argue that Monster Hunter is the best "MMORPG" I've ever played and it doesn't even have any of that nonsense (At least not to the extreme that traditional MMOs have. Still have hub towns and fashion hunters). Planetside 2 is/was a great MMO but it has very little RPG elements, and since it's all PvP the semi-seamless open worlds actually mean something (until you consider redeployside) since battles can (or used to) occur outside the bases littered around the map. However, Planetside may have just been great merely because it was the only MMOFPS on the market (that I'm aware of) that wasn't instance/match-based (not really counting WWII Online).

Then you have games like World of Tanks/Warships, War Thunder etc. claiming to be "MMO"s but they don't have anything that resembles a typical MMO; if anything they're more similar to conventional match-based games with a little progression thrown in.

So I wonder... are traditional MMOs just novelties? Would it be better to have things a lot more instanced than they currently are and forego to 'MMO' designation?

Personally I prefer games that are more action-oriented than hotbar-spam oriented, hence why I liked Planetside the way I did. Even Terra saw you aiming individual attacks and skills (I believe they're called "skillshots" in the MOBA scene?) and Monster Hunter is all about positioning and attacking during openings to avoid taking damage.

E: Welcome to the forum Codician =D

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Well, I think the ideal solution would be a mix of M&B and TES Mechanics. Sadly both TES:O and Life is Fuedal are both flops. Again, I think it comes back to the Devs not understanding what the players want and just going with "what's safe" which leads to players being extremely disappointed, etc. etc.

[Arbinire]

MUDs and MMO's have been a big part of my gaming life, ever since I discovered ArcticMUD back in Jr. High just before Diablo 1 came out.  I think the major stick in the craw of the genre people fail to acknowledge is that the biggest draw to these games wasn't the gameplay, or the graphics, or the accessibility.  It was the social interaction.  Communities formed up first around their specific MUDs and Games, then their specific servers.  Guilds were nice but not completely necessary because people made a name for themselves outside of those, whether it was for being talented in their chosen role, their memorable RP writing skills, how tough they were to take down through PK/PVP, or even just being the resident troll.

That stuff right there...that's dead, and that's why the genre wont ever be what it was.  And there's a mentality now that's the way it should be.  I understand that not being able to solo everything isn't everyone's, or even the majorities cup of tea...but relying on your community to get something done actually built up bonds which hooked the player in.  Not the skinner boxes.

[Vendayn]

Funny this thread popped up. I went back to try Ultima Online for a minimum of a month. You can see my thoughts and other random stuff

http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/457075/my-experience-of-resubscribing-to-ultima-online-atlantica

Haven't been very happy with a lot of modern MMOs. I like EVE Online a lot, only one I actually like, besides UO (so far).

I tried Elder Scrolls Online since they added One Tamriel. But like what happened to me last time, 30 minutes to 60 minutes of playing it makes me want to play my modded Skyrim instead...so...I log off and go play my modded Skyrim instead of ESO

[Silverthrone]

With so many MMOs about these days I wonder what it is about MMOs specifically that attracts people than a more conventional multiplayer game.

In my case, it was because I liked (and still do) the idea of being just one adventurer in a big world with other adventurers. Other players about the place are still other players, after all, even if I don't interact with precisely them. It is (or was) cool to see a top-level player in their best gear parading at the bank when you were a noob in rags. And there was just the feeling that, at that moment, people were doing stuff all over the little world. I also like it when you can contrast the feeling of hustle and bustle in a big city/convenience hub to being alone in the wilderness in some distant zone few people go to.
I've always prefered RP servers for that reason, because you could run into guilds of people encamped in the jungle or on their way somewhere. A lot of inns had at least some people there, doing some (often fairly hamfisted but well-intended) roleplaying, chatting about the harvest and the encroaching ogres or whatnot. It helped give flavour, and since it was players enjoying themselves, it's not just decor. I suppose it's larping without leaving the house, but it's relaxing. Hell, even if it is an out of character occasion and everyone is bunny-hopping about, I still think it adds some weight.

That's why Guild Wars 1 never did it for me, with other players only appearing in instanced locations. If it's going to be an MMO, I'd like to feel as just a part of the whole, and see other players doing their thing while I was doing mine. Sometimes hook up and do something harder together. I think I've collapsed into rambling by this point, but there is a certain... Je ne sais quoi, a feeling, to that sort of experience. I'm not sure if I'll be able to re-capture it in some new MMO of some description, but I'll always have the memory of it.

[nenjin]

I did MMOs for the raiding (once I'd played enough EQ to know what raiding was.) I liked organizing and coordinating with that many people. The shared joy of victory in a hard won fight. It felt like having a party a couple times a week. Community is good.

But as I got older it started to feel like work. Raiding is great when you're in high school / college and can devote that amount of time to it. But as an adult, raid organization and raid leading became a chore and an enormous drain on already scarce hours.

[Cthulhu]

Not to mention watching your entire night disappear because two or three people can't figure out how to not stand in the thing that kills you wears on you after a while.

[Silverthrone]

Not to mention watching your entire night disappear because two or three people can't figure out how to not stand in the thing that kills you wears on you after a while.

Heh, that's one of my clearer MMO-memories. I was that guy, once. At some point, the raid leader pulled me aside (well, whispered me, but told me to come with him out of the raid instance for the chat, nice touch) after a wipe and said it loud and clear. Don't remember the exact terms, but the sentiment was "You're wasting people's time! Pay attention and learn the bosses!", and I managed to whimper myself a second chance. It went better, and I sat down and studied the encounters I thought I was up against in the future. I got to come with them more times, and it was nice to feel that improvement. Still don't know why he bothered. It was a pick-up job, and I was literally a guy from the street. He could've just chucked me out and gotten anyone else with a pulse. Don't remember his name, but it was a pretty cute little lesson of sorts, now that I look back.

[Vendayn]

That is why I'm enjoying Ultima Online and EVE Online.

Can play for however long and still accomplish stuff. EVE Online even trains in real time, so you never have to grind levels/skills. Ultima Online I can play 30 min or whatever and still accomplish a lot, same with EVE sorta. Though both UO and EVE have things that take up a lot more time.

But it isn't like raiding at all, where a whole night could be taken up...and dealing with the raid scene, where its more cutthroat than PvP is in EVE lol. At least that is how it was on the WoW server I was on, it was so terrible I quit raiding for good cause of how cutthroat and terrible the raiders were on my server. It made EVE look like a carebear game lol.

[nenjin]

Not to mention watching your entire night disappear because two or three people can't figure out how to not stand in the thing that kills you wears on you after a while.

Heh, that's one of my clearer MMO-memories. I was that guy, once. At some point, the raid leader pulled me aside (well, whispered me, but told me to come with him out of the raid instance for the chat, nice touch) after a wipe and said it loud and clear. Don't remember the exact terms, but the sentiment was "You're wasting people's time! Pay attention and learn the bosses!", and I managed to whimper myself a second chance. It went better, and I sat down and studied the encounters I thought I was up against in the future. I got to come with them more times, and it was nice to feel that improvement.

I had to be that guy quite often. If I wasn't leading the raid I was Rogue Captain, and there is no greater group of "LOL DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE FIGHT WHATS MY DPS AT?" characters than Rogues. I had to have that exact conversation with several of them where I was like "Your gear is good, you know how to press the right buttons for maximum DPS, but you not paying attention is killing us because we need that DPS and you dying in the first 30 seconds is a waste of my goddamn time, and everyone else's." I remember when I first started raiding in EQ, I was _terrified_ of holding up the show. Getting lost, losing your corpse, pulling adds by mistake and wiping the raid. I lived in mortal terror of offending 39 acquaintances and strangers with my incompetence. It was clear to me from Day 1 that this was a group activity and what you did had an impact on everyone else. And I was only like 15.

So I was continually mystified why some people that came to raid in WoW like a fucking decade later didn't understand that until it literally had to be shouted at them. I had to have this actual conversation with someone:

New Raider: "Why are you all so uptight about this? Isn't this supposed to be fun?"
Me: "Raiding isn't about fun, it's about getting shit done. And if it is about fun, repeatedly failing because you don't know what you're doing isn't fun for us."

I remember people on the verge of tears apologizing because they couldn't make raid that night for completely legitimate, human reasons. Like "my kid is sick" or "soandso is in the hospital." And raid almost seemed to be more important sometimes. Strange times.

Still don't know why he bothered. It was a pick-up job, and I was literally a guy from the street. He could've just chucked me out and gotten anyone else with a pulse.

Raid leaders are always looking to turn pick ups into regulars. It is NOT as easy as you would assume to find someone with a) the time b) the inclination c) the gear d) the temperament and e) any basic raid experience at all. The more reliable people you have in your address book, the less chance that someone not being able to raid that night doesn't spoil it for everyone. So you meet as many people as you can, try to pick the diamonds out of the rough, cultivate them and help them improve. Ideally you want twice as many people begging to join the raid each night than you actually need. Nothing more stressful for a raid leader than not being able to call on the manpower they need.

I remember a couple pick ups that flew off the handle at the first criticism they got, and immediately left the raid without a word, because they didn't realize raid leaders and captains are watching EVERYONE's performance looking for weakness, anything that could improve the raid performance, even goddamn consumables. I'd have to regularly call out to other rogues during fights to remind them of things like "this is the part where you step back from combat" but also stuff like "Why is none of your gear enchanted?" "Why do you not have any potions?" "Why are you using that ranged weapon when this other ranged weapon has far superior stats and you're not going to be doing any shooting in this raid?"

But yeah. I remember what it's like to want to/need to cultivate players. Which isn't something I'm normally inclined to do. But when you have 23 to 48 people looking to you to make their night happen and their dreams come true...you end up doing a lot of things you didn't think you were equipped for. After running raids, it's odd how you feel weirdly qualified to work in corporate America. I'm not a "Go Team!" kind of guy, I'm usually the guy in the back going "fuck all this hoopla." Yet when it came to raid I actually, legitimately cared.

Until it all became too much, at any rate. It was weird disconnecting from raiding because for like two weeks I didn't know what to do with myself. It took readjusting to not having to give a shit about this fake thing you do 8 to 16 hours a week.

[Ozyton]

I hadn't even considered the social aspect, somehow. You're right, that seems to be the main draw of MMOs, which is why I suppose I can't really get into them. Hell, to me, meeting new people (online or off, doesn't matter) feels like standing I'm at the edge of a cliff. That plus I'm constantly in fear of letting other people down if/when I screw something up. All of that raiding stuff sounds extremely stressful, especially considering there are other games that can give a similar sense of accomplishment or enjoyment without the risk of making things terrible for dozens of people, but probably aren't as rewarding as when you do succeed.

[Silverthrone]

I had to be that guy quite often. If I wasn't leading the raid I was Rogue Captain, and there is no greater group of "LOL DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE FIGHT WHATS MY DPS AT?" characters than Rogues. I had to have that exact conversation with several of them where I was like "Your gear is good, you know how to press the right buttons for maximum DPS, but you not paying attention is killing us because we need that DPS and you dying in the first 30 seconds is a waste of my goddamn time, and everyone else's." I remember when I first started raiding in EQ, I was _terrified_ of holding up the show. Getting lost, losing your corpse, pulling adds by mistake and wiping the raid. I lived in mortal terror of offending 39 acquaintances and strangers with my incompetence. It was clear to me from Day 1 that this was a group activity and what you did had an impact on everyone else. And I was only like 15.

So I was continually mystified why some people that came to raid in WoW like a fucking decade later didn't understand that until it literally had to be shouted at them. I had to have this actual conversation with someone:

New Raider: "Why are you all so uptight about this? Isn't this supposed to be fun?"
Me: "Raiding isn't about fun, it's about getting shit done. And if it is about fun, repeatedly failing because you don't know what you're doing isn't fun for us."

That was basically my sentiment as well, particularly when I got with the Big Boys in WoW. I was a pretty thick and awkward teen (hence the need for our little talk), but I think it worked because I was always afraid of stalling people up by a blunder from my part. One of the reasons why I tried to elbow my way into big pick-up raids was that I at some level thought that with 40 people running about, some probably bigger boobs than I was, my little boo-boos would get lost in the background. No such luck, and a good thing it was.

Raid leaders are always looking to turn pick ups into regulars. It is NOT as easy as you would assume to find someone with a) the time b) the inclination c) the gear d) the temperament and e) any basic raid experience at all.

_{"Give them to us while they are young, and they are oouurs foreveeer, hah-hah-haaah..."}

Heh, fascinating to hear. Never did much raid organisation (to a mutual sigh of relief from all involved), so I never learnt to see it from that way. I thought you could always hoover up a few extras from the street if need be. Well, I had time and made up for the lack of the rest with enthusiasm. I suppose they felt that someone who's still chipper like a puppy after seven or so wipes is worth carrying along for the calm.

I remember a couple pick ups that literally flew off the handle at the first criticism they got, and immediately left the raid without a word, because they didn't realize raid leaders and captains are watching EVERYONE's performance looking for weakness, anything that could improve the raid performance, even goddamn consumables. I'd have to regularly call out to other rogues during fights to remind them of things like "this is the part where you step back from combat" but also stuff like "Why is none of your gear enchanted?" "Why do you not have any potions?" "Why are you using that ranged weapon when this other ranged weapon has far superior stats and you're not going to be doing any shooting in this raid?"

But yeah. I remember what it's like to want to/need to cultivate players. Which isn't something I'm normally inclined to do. But when you have 23 people looking to you to make their night happen and their dreams come true...you end up doing a lot of things you didn't think you were equipped for. After running raids, it's odd how you feel weirdly qualified to work in corporate America. I'm not a "Go Team!" kind of guy, I'm usually the guy in the back going "fuck all this hoopla." Yet when it came to raid I actually, legitimately cared.

Until it all became too much, at any rate. It was weird disconnecting from raiding because for like two weeks I didn't know what to do with myself. It took readjusting to not having to give a shit about this fake thing you do 8 to 16 hours a week.

I fear I was sort of that guy, as well. Mostly because I shirked the individual grinding I could get away with, and had a pretty loose grip on stats and enchants overall. I got better at sorting my own kit out, but I could be a bit of a nightmare for a raid leader in that reguard. I was the kind of player that could forget to swap their novelty fish out of their weapon slot.

All in all, I'm glad I didn't got into full-time raid leading. It'd driven me up the walls in a day. Support your local raid leader today! Christ knows they need it.

I hadn't even considered the social aspect, somehow. You're right, that seems to be the main draw of MMOs, which is why I suppose I can't really get into them. Hell, to me, meeting new people (online or off, doesn't matter) feels like standing I'm at the edge of a cliff. That plus I'm constantly in fear of letting other people down if/when I screw something up. All of that raiding stuff sounds extremely stressful, especially considering there are other games that can give a similar sense of accomplishment or enjoyment without the risk of making things terrible for dozens of people, but probably aren't as rewarding as when you do succeed.

Oddly enough, WoW kind of helped for me in that regard. I've got similar apprehension in a lot of social encounters, but an MMO where no-one knows your name or care to remember it very long, it felt a lot more safe to try and be more social and approaching than usual. It was fun to have a (kind of) social outlet with less of the pressure. Plus, I got to practice more english, which was helpful. I wouldn't say it "cured" me, not at all, but it did make handling real life social encounters a bit less frightful.

[nenjin]

It was a give and take. Not every raid needed you to be dialed into the max. Kharazan generally was a 25-man raid you could get away with a lot of slack in. Until your group couldn't hack it that is. Then the time for "who is not pulling their weight" arrived. I raided all the way up to Illidan and Black Temple in WoW and the level of professionalism required there kind of soured me for future raiding. It was the excellence that I wanted but without the friends to share it with, it was pretty soulless.

But yeah. I miss it, honestly. Don't miss the stress but I miss the shared sense of adventure and triumph. Knowing what was killing the raid, identifying it then correcting it as a group was a special thing you only really get out of a career in real life.

[Cthulhu]

I've always been really intensely self-conscious in group situations and terrified of holding people up or needing help.  That extends to everything.  In class or at work I'd often end up doing other people's jobs just because I hated the idea of us ending up behind or something.  League of Legends was a nightmare for me for a long time because every game was a new group of people to potentially let down, and I never really got over the stress of playing dota 2.

Raids were bad too but the metrics were much more understandable.  I was first or second highest DPS and I wasn't dying so I must be doing good.

I never got into a serious raiding guild, but I did several pickup raids in various expansions.  My clearest experiences were from WoLK (AKA Don't Stand in the Shit: The Expansion) doing 10-man Naxx with a PUG.  The first run we killed the spider and got stuck on Heigan because people couldn't dance (I was one of them, but I sort of got the hang of it after a while)

The second run we beat Patchwerk and got stuck on Grobbulus because people kept standing in the shit.  After two or three rounds of this our top DPS (I was second place) started doing it on purpose and the raid folded after another couple rounds.