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Author Topic: MMORPGs?  (Read 8833 times)

Codician

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2016, 04:53:55 pm »

On the topic of raiding, the Pantheon MMO is promising to be a group-based raiding MMO.

I'm VERY cautiously waiting on the new version of Dark & Light to come out, especially since that was the very first MMO I was even burned by. There's also Conan Exiles which is Funcom so it will probably be shit. It looks beautiful, though.
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Cthulhu

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2016, 05:00:19 pm »

Conan was great for a few hours.  I liked the combat a lot, especially PVP, and I remember a few great experiences with it as a barbarian.  One time I ambushed a lady on the anything-goes island and got a fatality on her, smashed her head with a bigass sledgehammer.

The other I kept killing this guy in a dungeon over and over while he PMed me telling me to fight him without stealth.  I just laughed.  More games should give stealth to barbarians.
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nenjin

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2016, 05:01:13 pm »

I cut my teeth in Molten Core in the Pre-Burning Crusade era, when raiding was much closer to the Everquest model of raiding with 40 man raids, multi-hour commitments to clear and fewer tools. I had to make an ass out of myself there a couple times before I got back into the groove of raiding and remembered the cardinal rules:

1. Don't move when you're not supposed to.
2. Absolutely do fucking move when you're supposed to.

I'd like to raid again but I'm afraid my natural inclination would be to try to lead things when I saw deficiencies and I simply can't take on that kind of responsibility anymore. I think I drove myself a little crazy designing a DKP system for our WoW raids, I have no desire to try that again. (Nor listen to all the bitching when you finally reveal the rules to people and no one likes it. ><)
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Silverthrone

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2016, 05:14:08 pm »

It was a give and take. Not every raid needed you to be dialed into the max. Kharazan generally was a 25-man raid you could get away with a lot of slack in. Until your group couldn't hack it that is. Then the time for "who is not pulling their weight" arrived. I raided all the way up to Illidan and Black Temple in WoW and the level of professionalism required there kind of soured me for future raiding. It was the excellence that I wanted but without the friends to share it with, it was pretty soulless.

But yeah. I miss it, honestly. Don't miss the stress but I miss the shared sense of adventure and triumph. Knowing what was killing the raid, identifying it then correcting it as a group was a special thing you only really get out of a career in real life.

Know that feeling. I was never top raider material, and these days I think I was the weakest link. Still, floundering through mid content with people you liked was better fun than shooting for the big, bad raids. I think we more or less moved in at Gruul's for a few weeks.
My interest for raiding died a natural death. Still, I miss it sometime, particularly the feeling of being a small part bringing down something big. Being a good li'l trooper for the raid was a special kind of fun.

I've always been really intensely self-conscious in group situations and terrified of holding people up or needing help.  That extends to everything.  In class or at work I'd often end up doing other people's jobs just because I hated the idea of us ending up behind or something.  League of Legends was a nightmare for me for a long time because every game was a new group of people to potentially let down, and I never really got over the stress of playing dota 2.

Raids were bad too but the metrics were much more understandable.  I was first or second highest DPS and I wasn't dying so I must be doing good.

I never got into a serious raiding guild, but I did several pickup raids in various expansions.  My clearest experiences were from WoLK (AKA Don't Stand in the Shit: The Expansion) doing 10-man Naxx with a PUG.  The first run we killed the spider and got stuck on Heigan because people couldn't dance (I was one of them, but I sort of got the hang of it after a while)

The second run we beat Patchwerk and got stuck on Grobbulus because people kept standing in the shit.  After two or three rounds of this our top DPS (I was second place) started doing it on purpose and the raid folded after another couple rounds.

I liked healing, and got decent at it. Was my favourite role throughout the game. It gives you the IM HELPING :D good feeling while being a fairly focused task. Watch where you step, what's going on and keep people standing. Also a good place to keep at the back and be encouraging from. Easier than rotations, anyway. Hence why I tend to be a bit disappointed when an MMO goes "Everyone is DPS! Everyone!! This is the Future!"

Conan was great for a few hours.  I liked the combat a lot, especially PVP, and I remember a few great experiences with it as a barbarian.  One time I ambushed a lady on the anything-goes island and got a fatality on her, smashed her head with a bigass sledgehammer.

The other I kept killing this guy in a dungeon over and over while he PMed me telling me to fight him without stealth.  I just laughed.  More games should give stealth to barbarians.

"Conan was a thief, smart guy!" *gank gank gank gank gank*

I don't really know why I never really fell for AoC. I ought to have, I liked Conan when I was younger. Well, maybe the lack of an anthro-race or two cast the deciding vote.

I cut my teeth in Molten Core in the Pre-Burning Crusade era, when raiding was much closer to the Everquest model of raiding with 40 man raids, multi-hour commitments to clear and fewer tools. I had to make an ass out of myself there a couple times before I got back into the groove of raiding and remembered the cardinal rules:

1. Don't move when you're not supposed to.
2. Absolutely do fucking move when you're supposed to.

I'd like to raid again but I'm afraid my natural inclination would be to try to lead things when I saw deficiencies and I simply can't take on that kind of responsibility anymore. I think I drove myself a little crazy designing a DKP system for our WoW raids, I have no desire to try that again. (Nor listen to all the bitching when you finally reveal the rules to people and no one likes it. ><)

Molten Core... The Proving Grounds. Thousands of teeth, cracked from gritting, lies mixed with the ash. It's fun to see how relatively primitive that raid was. Always a comfort, Blizzard was only vaguely getting the hand of what they were playing at, just like us aspirants trapped within.  :P

Yes, can't quite recommend casual on-demand raids, either. Tried that briefly before I bowed out. It's not the same, although it's a nicer alternative to the old, lava-dunking, Raggie-hazing days.
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Cthulhu

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2016, 05:36:56 pm »

Nah, Vaelastrasz was the real crucible.  Three minute meatgrinder, repair biller, guild eater.

I think Panda was where the game really started going off the rails  LFR really dismantled a lot of the community the game had, and the Isle of Time obviated 90% of pre-raid content.

There was no point doing heroics, let alone regular dungeons, because you could be raid-ready with all purples in like two hours on the isle of time.  I only remember doing two of the regular 5-man Panda dungeons and I only did them once each.

LFR was basically free epics as well, half the people in any given LFR group were afk or just following the group around.  There were still mythic raids but all of Panda had this "why bother?" feel to it.

Warlords of Draenor was like Blizzard said "fuck it" and stopped pretending it was an MMO

My friend's convinced me though, I'm gonna play again.  Legion sounds really good. 
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Arbinire

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2016, 06:15:03 pm »

Honestly, Legion is so so.  It's the best the game has been since the first patch of Cataclysm for sure, but it's still suffering from all new failings.  The game has switched to an RNG model more like Diablo 3 with the mythic+ dungeons being the focus of progression now, which is doing more to fracture guilds into cliques than ever before.  If your tanks and healers want nothing to do with catching your lower geared guild members up, they're boned since both roles have had their difficulty ramped up a bit(though again no where near early expansion levels).

People talk about how there is so much content but really it's just 5 zones with an improved randomized dailies system but it still gets repetitive.  Same with the Mythics.  While raiding is still going to be around, it's definitely not going to be a driving factor for progression anymore.  Not sure how PvP is sitting atm honestly.

The game is in a better place than it's been in 2 1/2 expansions, but I don't see it being sustainable, even if they do keep pumping content out relatively reasonably.  Burnout is going to be a very real thing with that content this expansion.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2016, 06:52:46 pm »

Personally? WOWs story went to shit after WOTLK.
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Cthulhu

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2016, 08:55:00 pm »

Well Metzen's gone now, so it won't be orcs orcs orcs orcs orcs.

WoW has been Thrall fanfic pretty much since the beginning, and sure enough as soon as Metzen leaves Thrall becomes a nobody character. 
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nenjin

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2016, 10:18:53 pm »

Quote
Being a good li'l trooper for the raid was a special kind of fun.

Yeah, haven't ever really gotten that experience in any other kind of game.

Which, if I could get that fix elsewhere I would. I'd like to enjoy that same raid experience in WoW but like, in a First Person Shooter. But the only way you really get that is by joining a wonky gaming league with strict rules. All the F2P and/or vaguely MMO-like games out now (Warframe for example) are making stabs at raid-style content but I don't think it's quite there.

For me I think the fact is, all of it requires joining a guild and getting into an online social circle and after years of MMOs, guilds, drama and time spent organizing people in the name of fun, I just don't have the interest and time. Maybe one day when I'm retired I can get back into true online gaming, and can be that person in the guild that's vastly older than everyone else. Til then I'll continue to watch what people are calling MMO games.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 10:24:40 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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How will I cheese now assholes?
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Cthulhu

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #39 on: October 13, 2016, 10:24:25 pm »

Playing the intro to Legion now.

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PrimusRibbus

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2016, 10:25:27 pm »

MMORPGs are dead. WoW killed them.

Even what passes for a PvP MMORPG these days still requires you to spend 100 hours doing fetch quests and collecting 30 wolf assholes as a tax to get to the content. When you finally get to the content, it's usually instant-gratification PvP, instead of open-world politics and sieges (though you might get a tiny guild war battle zone somewhere if the developers are really generous). They couldn't possibly let you truly reshape the world with politics and guild wars, lest it affects the precious "storylines" they spent so much time making.

And really, why would you spend 100 hours in boring PvE quests to gain access to arenas and battlegrounds when there's a million arena combat games available now?
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nenjin

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2016, 10:32:09 pm »

I won't claim Secret World isn't a thin veneer over all that. But to that game's credit at least, every quest had a little thought put into the writing, and some quests were all about the aesthetic. That makes a lot of the modern MMO design bearable. I can bear a lot if at least the pretext for me doing it is interesting. WoW made an art form out of bullshit reasons to do things.

Still, I played WoW for probably 4? years and I hated almost every minute of the story and lore. That stupid little lore window that just begged you to ignore it. If I actually liked WoW's storyline I might still be clinging to the game today. But when I quit I was like "At least I don't have to pretend like I care about any of these characters or stories anymore." Taken in isolation there was plenty of cool stuff but as a world, I stopped caring about it back in WC3 when it became Arthas Wank. In truth I only begrudingly started playing WoW because I was regaled with stories of Zul'Gurub raids and Trolls as tall as buildings.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 10:36:45 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Cthulhu

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2016, 10:38:39 pm »

Because most of them are shit, and if nothing else all that questing gives you a decent base of understanding so you're not going in completely blind.

Guild Wars 2 had big server vs server pvp but it turns out more than 15 or so people on screen turns into a clusterfuck where there's no real strategy or skill involved except spamming your biggest aoe move.

Not edit:

It was orc jesus wank for like three expansions.  I don't remember much about the vanilla storyline, BC was a little of both but the Illidan thing mostly concerned alliance players.  Wrath was all about hummens and paladins and shit.  Then Cata was pure Metzen orc jesus fanfic.  Then Panda was pure Metzen orc jesus fanfic.  Then WoD was pure Metzen orc jesus fanfic.  Then they finally took his powers away and you see him briefly in the intro of Legion before he's mostly relegated to a quest giver for shamans.

My main problem with WoW's story is that the player characters are just kind of spectators, like they didn't know how to tell the story with you as the protagonist.  Almost every important villain in the game is killed by an NPC who appears out of nowhere to steal the show.

You fight Illidan, then he stuns you and Maiev appears and KSes the shit out of you.  You fight Arthas, Tirion KSes him.  Thrall KSes Garrosh, who was probably the single most obnoxious character in the history of world of warcraft.
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nenjin

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2016, 10:53:22 pm »

Face it. You've always just been the humble Footman from WC1. Just with a shitload of upgrades.

Quote
Guild Wars 2 had big server vs server pvp but it turns out more than 15 or so people on screen turns into a clusterfuck where there's no real strategy or skill involved except spamming your biggest aoe move.

That's because most of their devs probably spent their days in Warsong Gulch bunny hopping and stunning. And to be fair, I played a fair amount of Alterac Valley where I saw real strategy and tactics at play, and it wasn't just a constant scrum.

I mean, I really do miss the time before WoW set everyone's expectations about what an MMO should be. Yeah it's the smoothest and most user friendly MMO ever made. But it also mastered the grind and drip feeding rewards to people until it all blurred into a background hum of the reward centers of your brain functioning under moderate load constantly. It's why I am still drawn to raiding, because it breaks out of that shit and asks you to use your brain and your skills in a different way, to put in real work and attention for your actually notable and memorable reward.

I'm going to sound like a masochist here but....the endless days of "grinding" in older MMOs may have sucked when you think about all the time you spent doing the same goddamn thing for chump change and experience. But when you got something, it really felt like it mattered. That new weapon, that new piece of gear, you knew every nook and cranny and stat for it. That rare drop. That rare monster spawn. That group that actually went the distance because it was both geared and competent. A lot of that was a product of those games not being user friendly. Not being streamlined. Not putting reward over challenge. I mean, before WoW, I was happy to LOSE EXPERIENCE and risk my entire character and everything I'd played for, just for a chance to see somewhere I'd never see on my own. Now? I can't even stomach losing that stuff, I can't make myself play games where all my time can just go up in smoke like that. But I'll never been as thrilled, terrified or as true a believer in a game world as when it was asking me to risk everything in the name of adventure. Maybe that's a level of gaming and obsession that's a little too intense. But WoW made everything so safe and bland and predictable and easy that it never, ever felt like a living world to me. The scariest prospect in WoW was aggroing some shit during a raid and embarrassing yourself.

Quote
Hence why I tend to be a bit disappointed when an MMO goes "Everyone is DPS! Everyone!! This is the Future!"

Yeah. When I started playing roleplaying games and always choosing rogue, it was to be a dagger wielding badass. But it was always more about being invisible and undetectable. That's what I figured my job was in Everquest, was to scout around, go places other people couldn't, drag their bodies out so they could recover their shit and oh, backstab.

Then Rogue essentially turned into Ninja and I got to be one of the privileged few who had one very simple, self-involved job. Wizards had all sorts of other shit to do besides DPS and usually were the first to die when anything went wrong. Rogues? We were the ones that got to hide and save our asses, and crack-wise over the corpses of less savvy individuals. I always like saluting the rogues that survived a wipe while were were stealthing around. Until Blizzard started making it a point to have raid bosses and mobs see invis/remember their aggro so you had to wipe out along everyone else, so the fight reset cleanly.

And now, yeah. Everyone thinks the Trinity is bad to greater or lesser extents and everyone is DPS. Maybe they self heal, maybe their heals do damage. And the Trinity does kind of suck because it's hard to make a good solo game as well as MP game that relies on it. But it enforces teamwork and coordination and specialization, which I like a hell of a lot more than everyone being interchangably generic. I'm playing The Division right now with my roommate (which is basically an MMO-lite console game at its heart) and even IT has the Trinity.....but in a very generic "pick whatever skills you want and swap them around, I dunno, whatever, go fuck yourself" sort of way.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2016, 11:08:42 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Cthulhu

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Re: MMORPGs?
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2016, 11:41:12 pm »

I mostly play destruction warlock in WoW, in the old expansion and I"ll be doing the same now.  Destro post class-rework is basically artillery.  Your spells do huge damage with very long cast times, so if you're allowed to stand still you'll blow people the fuck up.

Even in Panda where stats were inflated all to hell I got a couple two-shots with chaos bolt.

World pvp in WoW is horrible though because of the way gear works.  The last set of arena pvp gear was like 50 ilevels below the last set of good raid gear, so one or two geared raiders could assblast pretty much unlimited numbers of geared pvpers just by stat power alone.  In arenas and BGs raid gear was downscaled to the highest pvp ilevel where pvp gear had the advantage because it cut through resilience.
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