Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4

Author Topic: How to respond to warning?  (Read 6173 times)

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2016, 10:22:11 pm »

I did not mean anything personal tiruin, only that I have seen such behavior, and lament it when I see it. You don't seem to suffer from it, but it is an easy trap to fall into, especially when one is upset.

I see it far more often than I like, and from the sounds of it, questions has encountered it on the receiving end, which is why he asked here.

Again, I know it is outside your norms to even consider being that way to someone. I kinda unloaded at you because you made a slightly heavy assumption about questions future use of a hotbutton word.  It is my position that a person who is in that circumstance can identify any way they like. What, exactly, does the person pushing the report button have to be offended about in such cases? That a self reporting person with a disability self identifies with a term bearing negative connotations?  Declaring them a troll begs the question, asserts preemptively that they are a liar, and should be punished. 

As I said, anti-victim, and pro justice-warrior. It should not have happened, IMO.

I did not mean in any sense that you would do that. Only that the suggestion of the alternative gives silent affirmation to the blanket prohibition.

Sorry for the confusion.
Logged

Tiruin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Life is too short for worries
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2016, 10:45:25 pm »

I see it far more often than I like, and from the sounds of it, questions has encountered it on the receiving end, which is why he asked here.

Again, I know it is outside your norms to even consider being that way to someone. I kinda unloaded at you because you made a slightly heavy assumption about questions future use of a hotbutton word. [...]
It may be more that I'm outside the culture/experiences(?) you may be used to :O Given that...this whole SJW thing seems American-(ish?) in nature, what with the whole "I'm offended" or stuff (but lacking communication attempts to go ABOUT it rather than against being offended), I'm working more along what I've learned (which is the whole underlying assumption of you towards me :P).
My wording is messy, apologies ahead. I haven't slept for a long time. x_x

Also I didn't think you'd think I meant any of that. xD It was more me going 'ah, he has a good point :O I should clarify \o/', and then things are now better understood thanks :3 You've nice points

Declaring them a troll begs the question, asserts preemptively that they are a liar, and should be punished.
I honestly think it's the other added indicators--reasonably, someone could think his account would be used for 'trolling' given some words being placed in a manner to give off a not-really-nice-impression (ie personal text, as impressionistic as it is, and literal, rather than a humorous perception by him). That it wouldn't be like self-reported but...yeah.
Context :-X (I'm not debating the warning :O I'm just saying my thoughts out loud for the OP to probably consider?)

And thanks wierd for the clarification :D
Logged

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2016, 11:03:28 pm »

Its more that I like you, and would be mortified if you fell into that trap.

Less accusation, more "mind the gap."
Logged

Caz

  • Bay Watcher
  • [PREFSTRING:comforting whirs]
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2016, 12:32:40 pm »

Do not reply, just accept and move on.    :)

This. The only response should be a shiver of fear as the shadow of Armok passes over.
Logged

IHaveAFewQuestions

  • Bay Watcher
  • Lord of incompetence
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2016, 03:22:09 pm »

What even happens after a warning?
Logged

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2016, 03:34:05 pm »

Not a whole lot, but the toad has a long memory.

It is what it says on the tin.  It is a warning to not repeat whatever it was you did, straighten up, and fly right.

Failure to do so will result in actual punishments ranging from a temp suspended acct, to being permabanned.
Logged

helmacon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Just a smol Angel
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2016, 10:50:57 pm »

This seems relevent
Logged
Science is Meta gaming IRL. Humans are cheating fucks.

Tiruin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Life is too short for worries
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2016, 11:32:03 pm »

What even happens after a warning?
Other than what wierd said (thanks wierd for the kindly message :>), it's more like "Instead of repeating what you did before--find ways on how you can do it better [if what you did was well-intended but gave off a bad impression]", also going generally along 'learn from what you were warned for, and improve'.

As in, if one keeps doing that after being informed, the responsibility then is on them for their actions given that the consequences are then known.

This seems relevent
In a way, but there's also the origin of it all being context rather than 'powerful groups swinging around this word because of maybe-inherent offensiveness'. :P Do take note that the context also matters--like in places where the word is used with the meaning demeaning others or otherwise being condescending, it'll have the idea of being offensive, whereas in the context of which the word isn't used in any such negative way (and lacks a background OF having such a meaning), it may not have the same impact on the people using it or receiving it.

That said, it's pretty much better to use a more descriptive idea given the unspecific audience of a forum :P So...yeah. Just a few more key presses helps the broader audience instead of just only those who contextually connect that word with 'no harm'; it gives a better gist for clarity, rather being the more important note for all.
Logged

anzki4

  • Bay Watcher
  • On the wings of maybe
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2016, 06:50:15 am »

Relevant: http://linguisticmystic.com/2012/11/02/the-r-word-and-the-euphemism-treadmill/

Some highlights if you are too lazy to read:
Quote from: from link above
What’s interesting to me is that “retarded” was once an accepted and professional term for a person with mental or developmental disabilities, which has now fallen victim to a phenomenon called pejoration or the “Euphemism treadmill”...
This is the process by which words for taboo or negatively associated subjects (bodily functions, disabilities, death) are born as euphemisms (more polite ways of talking about a subject) and then, gradually, start to aquire negativity from negative use, and eventually are shunned and replaced by a new euphemism.
Quote from: from link above
So, the term “retarded” was born as a euphemism, seeming to take off around 1950, replacing the recently-shunned “slow”. It was used as the accepted term for the concept for many years, until people started using it negatively (“That movie was so retarded!”) and it started to pick up a negative connotation.
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2016, 07:03:16 am »

Interestingly enough "Moron" has... normalized.

And "retarded" is actually on a trend of becoming normalized as well. It is FAAAAR less offensive then it once was with hold outs being the typical "I am not someone with mental disabilities and I chose to be offended for them! I am not going to ask for their opinion or acknowledge their opinion in anyway... because I am a White Cis Male and I speak for everyone!".

and the thing is... It is actually really weird in concept to be so offensive as to become a swear word.

How do you respond to people?
1) Consider their opinion: Remember you are never so right that you are above scrutiny.
2) Roll your eyes: They are probably just being overly sensitive.

Now if this becomes the typical: So anti-discriminate that it becomes discrimination... (which this isn't the case... unless you legitimately have a mental disability)

Then maybe it is time to speak up. Otherwise just let people be offended at their shadows.

---

The thing about not offending anyone is...

You can't...

Because something is offensive if you do something, it is offensive if you don't do something... it is offensive if you handle it with respect, it is offensive if you treat it tawdry.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 07:09:02 am by Neonivek »
Logged

Tiruin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Life is too short for worries
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2016, 07:16:00 am »

The thing about not offending anyone is...

You can't...

Because something is offensive if you do something, it is offensive if you don't do something... it is offensive if you handle it with respect, it is offensive if you treat it tawdry.
This is fallacious reasoning :v incomplete, rather. It's missing out the point of language and the context in which impressions and impact forms. Why it has become offensive is because of the meaning being transferred WHEN people use it--this is based on surface impressions or the 'general, probably vague' idea people got with that word.

Like what anzki4 wrote--people used it in a very blunt way, then becoming a shorthand because 'it seems the same', because it included their impression as an adjective there. Turn the whole thing into an experiential matter and people who first or commonly hear that word used that way now have a different idea of how it's used rather than the historical outlook being used here to further see the depth of it; this 'different idea' then becomes part of what's going to be used later on.

Also you seem to be bringing other issues into the thread, that's culturally bound in context, Neo :P White Cis Male things and all. It's speaking from unspoken context. It'd help if you added onto that for those who can't get it (eg Me, and others)
Logged

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2016, 11:27:19 am »

gender and race really dont have much application here though Tiruin.  (Taken as an asexual male in a very sexual world, I know all too well how out of the norm I am, but this just gives me something to look at and marvel, rather than simply live and take for granted-- I see where I am different, but I also see where I am the same. The proclevity to denounce or discourage that which is different or difficult to understand is universal between all races, all genders, all sexualities. It is the basis of religious extremism, the basis of racism, the basis of gender politics, and nationalism. It is endemic in all of the human race.)

what seems unspoken in the article linked prior, is that the cultural condemnation always fixates on the WORDS used. Never on the rationale behind the intent that powers those words.

"Oh no! He said the N word! How terrible!"

et al.

The word is not what is terrible.  It derives from Niger, the country, as well as the latin adjective for for the color "black", negra.
At its most simple core, the word just means "Black". 

Like "retarded", or "gay", or "queer", or any other euphemism for a term that society finds "difficult" (or even "icky"), it has ridden the roller coaster of being first offered as the accepted term, become saturated in the all too human malignancy for things that are percieved to be different, and come to mean something entirely different from their etymological roots.

The underlying pathos is not the words used to describe or inflect that sense of malign view--- They are victims, casualties.  The words are not responsible.

What is responsible, is the human aversion to things that are different.

Fighting this nature, and it is a natural thing for humans (as it affects all races, all creeds, all genders, all nations, all cultures), is hard. Condemning a word? That is easy.


However, if we are serious about wanting to help ourselves as a species to outgrow this thing that once served our ancestor's survival, that now only holds us back, we must give genuine care and consideration to the efficacy of our proposed solutions.

Does denouncing a word, or use of a word, get rid of the underlying pathos? Clearly, it does not-- as evidenced by the findings presented in the prior linked article. (Something that I myself noticed independently some time ago.)  What benefit, therefore, is there in castigation of a word?

As far as I can tell, it actually reinforces the pathos, rather than combating it--  It creates an artificial layer of abstract division between people. "I may not be perfect, but at least I dont use the N word!", and pals.  It foments a faulted world view that the words themselves are imbued with irredeemably malign intent, giving rise to the false notion that there is never a legitimate time or means of using those words. 

This does not solve the pathos, it enshrines it. 

The way to attack the pathos, and move forward beyond it, is to be enraptured by differences, not appalled by them.  Ideally, the words we use to describe ourselves should be common, ordinary, and free of such baggage.  The problem, is that as a species, we tend to use language to exclude, not include.

"I'm an athlete!"  holds some natural connotations that may simply be untrue, for instance.  Such as, it implies that the person who ascribes that way is less inclined to mental exploits; it implies they are not also a "scholar."

We seek to emphasize things that make us different, rather than things that we all have in common.  We even try to deny things we have in common that we know are deleterious.  For instance, everyone is a liar, because at some point in their lives, they have told a lie. Be it a little one to avoid hurting somebody's feelings, or big ones about their tax returns, or where they hid the bodies.  Does not matter the severity, everyone is a liar--- so, why do we all instinctively deny this thing we all clearly have in common?  Because denouncement of negative things makes us feel better about ourselves compared to how we view other people.  It's a dirty truth, but as far as I can tell, it is a universal one.

The first step to resolving a problem is accepting that there is one.

I am different than other people, but being different is not a problem.  Castigating people who are different?  That *IS* a problem.  Applying lazy mental shortcuts to words we use to describe others, to accentuate that hidden castigation?  THAT is the buried pathos behind hate speech.

Everyone is guilty, even if we dont realize it. It is endemic to human kind.  When we castigate "racists", for instance.  Racists are people, and they have the same drives and urges as anyone else. They just do not admit that they have a problem, and are in denial.  When we castigate them, we only harden them against that acceptance. We dont help them, and we dont help ourselves by doing it-- but we do anyway, because it makes us feel better about ourselves to demonize others. We would be better served as a species to feel sympathy and pity for people who are consumed by primitive hatreds and are too proud to admit they have a problem, much like we are better served to have sympathy for alcoholics, and drug addicts.

It is hard to feel that way for people who are hurting you.  A victim of child abuse from an alcoholic parent may have extreme difficulty in giving that parent the love they need to overcome their alcohol abuse.  But, does being insular, cold, and harboring deep resentment and even hatred to that parent really help the victim? Or-- does it really cause them to enter into a cycle of suffering and pain instead?

As a species, we "pussyfoot" around topics we find challenging, or "Icky."

Homosexuality, for instance--  Many heteronormative people find they idea "gross" by a combination of primitive instinct (Not like me, so dangerous- avoid!), and cultural disgust (Makes baby jesus cry!), so they dont want to talk about it,  because talking about it makes them have to think about it, and that makes them uncomfortable.

So, they invent cute euphemisms like "fruity", or "poofter", much like squeamish grown-ups who dont really want to talk about sex to an inquistive child will use words like "Pee pee" to describe a genital organ instead.

The ultimate underlying pathos is this squeemishness. 

What makes it something to be squeemish about?  People have sex. It's a fact of life. People have sex all kinds of ways. Some prefer certain ways, some prefer others.

Likewise with race.  It is this squeemishness about the issue that makes us pussyfoot around the issue-- but what issue is that exactly?  The simple fact is that people who are sufficiently different from us physically invoke an instinctual response we find unpleasant, and we dont really want to talk about it.  It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with perceptual differences triggering an evolutionarily programmed response.  Really pay attention to yourself and your emotional state the next time you see somebody with a major disfigurement, like a burn victim.  Do their burns make them dangerous to you?  No?  Then why do you have a hard time accepting them as "Same as self" internally?

I am aware of this response, and I CHOOSE to ignore it.  Not everyone *IS* aware of it consciously though, and may be quite offputting to people who's only crime is being different from them. 

With that thought in mind, consider this:

A person feels derision for somebody they consider to be a racist.  They behave in a way that is offputting to a person who is different from them (that person made a different choice than they did-- but pay attention here)-- because that person chose to be offputting to a person who is different from them. (!!!!! So are they really all that different!?)

I can only conclude, therefor, that people who castigate people who suffer from primitive hatreds, rather than feeling sympathy and well wishing for them, are acting irrationally, and are perpetuating the problem, not working to solve it.

I lament this.

When I see people rise up in furious anger over a word, I lament it.  It does not solve the problems it seeks to solve. It is just more in an endless litany of mutually applied violence and reprisal.  I understand this, because I understand the pathos-- I live with the pathos. I live with it every day.



When a person uses a word like "Nigger", or "Faggot", or "Retard",  we should understand that they suffer from hatred, and are a victim of their own hatred, much like an alcoholic is a victim of their alcoholism.  Responding with hatred of our own, in the form of ostracism, censure, or reprisal, only infects ourselves with that hatred. 

The real solution, is understanding, concern, support, and love.

Witholding those things does not help the person afflicted with hatred. It only drives them harder down its destructive path.



The words are not the problem. The problem is the lack of the higher understanding and acceptance.  When we denounce and castigate people who invoke the negativity manifest in such words, we ourselves perpetuate the problem.


Out of a position of pure reason, I cannot, and likely will not, ever condone the censorship of such words, and will equally never condone ostracism of people who suffer from an oppressive cycle of pain and hatred.

I understand why people do it. I literally feel the same pathos myself.  But I am honest about myself in this respect.  I know the better path.

I am saddened whenever I hear a story like this one, where intolerance rears its ugly head.
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2016, 01:26:47 pm »

The thing about not offending anyone is...

You can't...

Because something is offensive if you do something, it is offensive if you don't do something... it is offensive if you handle it with respect, it is offensive if you treat it tawdry.
This is fallacious reasoning :v incomplete, rather. It's missing out the point of language and the context in which impressions and impact forms. Why it has become offensive is because of the meaning being transferred WHEN people use it--this is based on surface impressions or the 'general, probably vague' idea people got with that word.

Like what anzki4 wrote--people used it in a very blunt way, then becoming a shorthand because 'it seems the same', because it included their impression as an adjective there. Turn the whole thing into an experiential matter and people who first or commonly hear that word used that way now have a different idea of how it's used rather than the historical outlook being used here to further see the depth of it; this 'different idea' then becomes part of what's going to be used later on.

Also you seem to be bringing other issues into the thread, that's culturally bound in context, Neo :P White Cis Male things and all. It's speaking from unspoken context. It'd help if you added onto that for those who can't get it (eg Me, and others)

I am trying to put someone at ease for possibly offending someone... and to tell them not to be afraid of possibly offending someone because no matter what you do what you write is offensive to someone.

Either by what you wrote, the context, or what you omitted EVEN if the omission is unrelated.

As for the whole "White Cis" thing... I am bring in the other context. Often the person offended at what you said... are not the people who should be offended. There is a trend of people being "offended" for other people, without allowing those very people a voice or an opinion.

A HUGE example would be Speedy Gonzales who was banned from television for years for being racist against Mexicans... You know what group didn't find it racist? Mexicans.

So who was likely offended by him going "I am retarded"? probably not anyone who has any mental disability. Likely just someone talking for this group that they do not in anyway speak for... or FAR worse actually speak for INSPITE of them. (Or a troll hiding behind defending groups in order to harass someone... Or worse)

All in all I am saying that the topic creator did nothing wrong... and people are being weenies.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2016, 01:32:31 pm by Neonivek »
Logged

Bumber

  • Bay Watcher
  • REMOVE KOBOLD
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2016, 01:43:02 pm »

I understand the pathos-- I live with the pathos. I live with it every day.
Is it wrong that I want to take this out of its context and see it in the Bay12 one?
Logged
Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?

wierd

  • Bay Watcher
  • I like to eat small children.
    • View Profile
Re: How to respond to warning?
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2016, 02:50:02 pm »

Lol, well, that is something most of us do have in common here, but not the pathos I was referring to. ;)
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4