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Author Topic: Your national healthcare system  (Read 8398 times)

Arx

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2016, 02:37:13 am »

Oh, I noticed a couple of days back at my local pharmacy that they provide a lot of basic healthcare services for ~R40 (~$3). That includes things like HIV testing, wound care and suturing, birth control and presumably abortion stuff (they roll it under 'family planning', which makes it hard to tell). Some of it's cheaper than others - I think an HIV test or pregnancy test will set you back ~$2.50, but a consultation type thing will be about $3.75.

Prices estimated at the current exchange rate, which is ~13.75 rands to the dollar. It struck me as a stark contrast to the US, where I've heard of people not being able to get serious injuries looked at because of the cost.
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Reelya

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2016, 03:14:45 am »

In Australia here, I have a friend who is from Texas. The worst story he told me is about someone there who broke their leg. His friends drove him to multiple hospitals and no-one would treat him because he was uninsured. They then said fukkit, and drove him to Mexico, since they were close to the border. The first town they come to, they find a doctor who patched him up for free.

thvaz

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2016, 04:32:08 am »

In Australia here, I have a friend who is from Texas. The worst story he told me is about someone there who broke their leg. His friends drove him to multiple hospitals and no-one would treat him because he was uninsured. They then said fukkit, and drove him to Mexico, since they were close to the border. The first town they come to, they find a doctor who patched him up for free.

Cool story, but it is funny how they are ok with exploring mexicans taxpayers but would never live there themselves.
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scriver

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2016, 04:50:41 am »

The NHS is a fraud, the British system has been unable to save 100% of citizens from death.
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martinuzz

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2016, 07:58:30 am »

Over here in the Netherlands, we used to have a single, state owned health insurance policy, which had really good coverage for any nescessary medical treatment. You could pay a bit extra to get additional coverage for unnescessary treatments (like getting gold fillings at the dentist instead of ceramic fillings, or plastic surgery). Premies were very affordable, and there was a state subsidy for the lowest income classes.

Then about 25 years ago, the wave of neoliberalism hit Western Europe, and the mantra 'leave everything to the open market' took over all government policy.
This lead to our railways being privatized, our energy network being privatized, our water supplies being privatized, our postal and telecommunications services privatized, our education partially privatized, and ofcourse, healthcare insurance too. Because, fair competition on the market would lead to more efficiency and better prices.

The reverse happened. 25 years later, premies have almost doubled at the couple of dozen healthcare insurance companies that emerged and survived competition, in part because they all need to make seperate micro agreements with pharmaceutical companies and hospitals, foregoing bulk price drops, part because healthcare went from being a non-profit organisation to many organisations out on the stock market, with a need to make profit to please their shareholders.
On the bright side, the government subsidy for the lowest income classes is still there. It did not grow in proportion to the price increase though.
Ever since the privatisation, healthcare insurance CEOs used to earn more than our Prime minister, and some even do, despite a recent law forbidding them from earning more than a PM.

Parallel with this, basic insurance coverage has decreased. Some treatments that used to be in the government healthcare are no longer available unless you have a premium policy. A good example is (female) anticonception. Women have to pay for that themselves now. (Condoms never were covered by insurance to begin with. Men have less rights then women)

On top of that, government budget cuts implemented a personal risk fee of nearly 400 euros. Whatever your healthcare needs, the first 400 euros per year you'll have to pay for yourself. This has hit chronically ill hard, and studies show that lower income folks no longer go to a doctor, because they can't afford the 400 euros. There's subsidy for the insurance premies, but not for the personal risk fee.  It's already leading to higher healthcare costs, for having to treat illnesses at a late stage, which would have been cheap to cure when diagnosed in time. This in turn leads to even higher insurance premies, because the insurance companies have to compensate for the higher healthcare costs.

For the average consumer, finding the right insurance has become an untransparant maze. The most recent development is that insurance companies are allowed to negotiate with single hospitals / aid providers every year. People have been surprised to find out that for certain treatments, they can no longer go to their own hospital, because the insurance company they're with did not renew their deal with that particular hospital this year. Or their autistic kid can no longer see his personal trainer that has accompanied him for years, because no more deal this year. Sometimes people have to travel halfway across the country to find insured care.

So, while usually I am still rather lyrical about how good access to healthcare is over here (it still is excellent compared to most other countries in the world), it's not as good as it used to be.
(The good news is that we'll have elections soon, and a majority of the political parties has already said they want to get rid of the personal risk fee altogether. Even one of our current governing parties has said so. I think the odds are good that it will indeed go away)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 08:08:17 am by martinuzz »
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Reelya

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2016, 08:07:10 am »

Yup, there's your example of what I was saying about how privatization actually works. The higher fee cuts the poor out of the market, which means they're making more per customer, and have less customers than before, so they can fire employees to save more money. So the companies decide how many of the population will get health care: if you're less than a certain amount profitable, then no health care for you! This lets them get away with charging the remaining customers higher fees. Denying service to those who are too poor is a core element of how supply and demand work.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 08:10:44 am by Reelya »
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martinuzz

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2016, 08:12:45 am »

Well, not exactly like that Reelya. Since health insurance is still mandatory, the poor aren't really cut out of the market. They still have to buy the insurance. The personal risk fee just makes them use less healthcare, which would seem like profit for the insurance companies, but turns out to be costing them money a few years later in expensive treatments that could have been avoided.

So the companies decide how many of the population will get health care: if you're less than a certain amount profitable, then no health care for you!
Yep this is what's happening too. If you've got a 1 in a billion rare genetical disease, you run the risk of none of the insurance companies having bought the specific rare treatment you need

What's really rotten: If someone has no healthcare insurance, or gets kicked out because they couldn't pay the bills, they will get a mandatory, even more expensive insurance, that is paid by automatically witholding it from their income, plus 40 euros per month fine from the justice department.
Many people are in serious debt because of this right now. Or the other way around, if you're in debt, and can't pay your healthcare you're bound to get more debt here. It's a negative spiral with no cure.

Denying service to those who are too poor is a core element of how supply and demand work.
It's not that far yet. No one will ever be denied first line healthcare. There's no pay up front requirement. But people stay away from healthcare because they fear the costs.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 08:23:40 am by martinuzz »
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Sheb

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2016, 08:49:08 am »

Hey, privatization isn't always bad. From what my parent said privatization of the telecom market in Belgium (Well, the state still own 51% of the main company, but competition was allowed) actually dramatically increased the quality of service without raising costs much (It actually took months to get a landline contract). Liberalization of the long-distance bus service in Germany also worked great, offering cheap public transit (I went to visit Helgo in the Rhinenland for 24 euros round trip. Even abusing student discounts and avoiding high-speed train, it would have cost me at least twice as much by rail).
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Antioch

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2016, 09:03:03 am »

Well, not exactly like that Reelya. Since health insurance is still mandatory, the poor aren't really cut out of the market. They still have to buy the insurance. The personal risk fee just makes them use less healthcare, which would seem like profit for the insurance companies, but turns out to be costing them money a few years later in expensive treatments that could have been avoided.

So the companies decide how many of the population will get health care: if you're less than a certain amount profitable, then no health care for you!
Yep this is what's happening too. If you've got a 1 in a billion rare genetical disease, you run the risk of none of the insurance companies having bought the specific rare treatment you need

What's really rotten: If someone has no healthcare insurance, or gets kicked out because they couldn't pay the bills, they will get a mandatory, even more expensive insurance, that is paid by automatically witholding it from their income, plus 40 euros per month fine from the justice department.
Many people are in serious debt because of this right now. Or the other way around, if you're in debt, and can't pay your healthcare you're bound to get more debt here. It's a negative spiral with no cure.

Denying service to those who are too poor is a core element of how supply and demand work.
It's not that far yet. No one will ever be denied first line healthcare. There's no pay up front requirement. But people stay away from healthcare because they fear the costs.

There is actually a surprisingly large amount of people who don't know that a visit to the General practitioner (huisarts) is always insured and does not cost you your personal risk fee.

I don't remember the actual number or source but it was like 1 in 4.

But there is indeed a large political will to either lower or get rid of the personal fee.
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Sheb

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2016, 09:18:35 am »

Is there? In Belgium, they are constantly raising the fees (actually called "moderator ticket",) to save money and prevent people from going to the doctor for unserious stuff. It's working to the point that we are starting to see people not getting treatment to save cash.
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Reelya

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2016, 09:22:00 am »

There is actually a surprisingly large amount of people who don't know that a visit to the General practitioner (huisarts) is always insured and does not cost you your personal risk fee.

I don't remember the actual number or source but it was like 1 in 4.

But there is indeed a large political will to either lower or get rid of the personal fee.

Effectively if nobody knew about the free thing, they wouldn't have to pay for it. So if you have an entitlement in place but don't want to spend money on it, just don't tell people they're eligible. GW Bush did that as governor of Texas with federal children's health insurance (CHIP): they basically didn't tell anyone that they could get it.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 09:23:55 am by Reelya »
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Antioch

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2016, 09:46:47 am »

Is there? In Belgium, they are constantly raising the fees (actually called "moderator ticket",) to save money and prevent people from going to the doctor for unserious stuff. It's working to the point that we are starting to see people not getting treatment to save cash.

Yes and this is the worst way to "save" money ever, since people not getting treatment in an early stage will only make it more expensive to treat them later.

People can't judge the seriousness of their own symptoms, which is the reason why we have doctors in the first place. The GP saying you are fine is part of his job and basically the least expensive "procedure" there is.


The tests here with online consultancy seems to be a great success by the way, around 12% is now done online and it's great for determining if you have to actually go to the doctor or not.
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Sheb

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2016, 10:32:07 am »

Well, I guess there is a sweet spot to minimize cost between "push people not to get real healthcare" and "have hypocrondriacs clog the system".
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Starver

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2016, 10:37:04 am »

A good example is (female) anticonception.
I had to twist my head around "anticonception", even though it should have been obvious. For a moment I thought you meant fertility treatments or vasectomy reversals1.

For reference, "contraception" (latin "against-" prefix, not Greek) is the English word. Yeah, I know... It's not even "Contraconception"2 but to me it looks to have been handily portmanteaued, or something.  ;)

Of course, I know Dutch Netherlandish perfectly. I just need to speak English with a heavy cold and put odd stresses on my words... Also Swedish but that has occasional "Bjork"s instead of the blocked nose.  :P


1 "Anticon-" looks like it's going in the direction of "Against against ..."
2 Which would be "Without with 'ception'", but "ception" on its own is unknown except as an "Inception"-inspired suffix to indicate recursion... Which it is, technically.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2016, 10:39:22 am by Starver »
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Sheb

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Re: Your national healthcare system
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2016, 11:15:51 am »

The con- in con-ception is 'from together".
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