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Author Topic: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy  (Read 1565 times)

Helgoland

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2016, 06:53:15 am »

Wait, there's respectable journals that print whacky political ideas off the internet?
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Tack

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2016, 08:32:57 am »

As a person who knows absolutely nothing about responsible journals.... Sure.

However, pretty interesting that democracy is the first system you'd think of for a digitised government.
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Helgoland

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2016, 01:29:39 pm »

I wasn't thinking of a digitised government. This system is in principle even feasible for Ancient Greece, especially if you remove the requirement that the ballot be secret. That's relatively recent anyway.
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Tack

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2016, 01:44:25 pm »

Ancient Greece?
I'm pretty sure the market for counterfeit polished stones would've gone through the roof.
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Helgoland

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2016, 02:57:48 pm »

Just have a couple priests keep watch over the lists and threaten to cut off their genitals if they engage in shenanigans.
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misko27

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2016, 09:25:44 pm »

Who elects the priests?

Here's three linked questions:

How do marginals figure in? If, say, the minimum is 15,000 votes and a guy has, look at that, 15,000 votes, does he get kicked out of the chamber immediately? If not, when? If so, does he come right back as soon as a new person votes for him? What if he hopscotches back and forth? That would make workin very hard, since he'd never know whether he'll have voting privileges or not at any given time. A minor issue, but there's more.

Second question: Isn't this system vulnerable to opinion swings? Suppose an article comes out that lambasts Rep. So-and-So (who was a very popular guy) for cheating on Mrs. So-and-So. He was working on a bill with a group of other people. Now he loses the votes to pass this bill. Maybe they were working on this a while, and now all of the Parliament sits on its hands until he gets better. Do they start working on a new thing until he gets better? Does that imply a world of alternative laws just floating about, waiting for the number of votes to come in? Isn't this just rule by media? Another issue.

Third Question: What about repeal? You said a minority is needed to enact. What is necessary to repeal? Does repeal require the same number? Presumably, then, the number of votes necessary to pass laws would need to be such that there could not exist two seperate-but-opposed blocs can enact and repeal the same law infinitely. Are there limits on repeal? Can the bureaucracy be in the middle of bringing about some law, only for the number of votes needed to repeal fly up because of a single day's unflattering headline? Do they keep working on it? For how long? If it's scrapped, what if the next day, a flattering news cycle leads to it being re-enacted? And related: imagine a Parliament of many single-issue activists. If the law-making barrier is too high, will it be possible to pass laws without making some omnibus bill in order to garner the necessary votes (this is similar to the old Congress habit of "earmarks", but for special issues)? All this leads up to my main point:

How is this parliament supposed to do its business? With members dropping in and out at will, votes going up and down depending on the daily media cycle, laws enacted and repealed at will, it seems very difficult for members to actually work. How is the business of making laws supposed to happen in this stock-market democracy of yours? Where is the power of institution? How would these people handle crisis? Or budgeting? What failsafes are there beyond voters recognizing the issues inherent in the system and acting to prevent them? For some of these, that may be easy, but, say, people deciding to actively avoid changing their votes in budgeting season is unlikely to catch on. There are a lot of questions.
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Flying Dice

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2016, 09:36:43 pm »

Wait, there's respectable journals that print whacky political ideas off the internet?
Pretty sure that you can submit without necessarily having current academic/institutional credentials, it's just that the combination of arcane and obtuse journal-specific requirements and necessary training in form, terminology, and style tend to weed out articles from even interested laypeople. That, and most people who don't have a job riding on getting published either aren't going to bother or are crazies who type up million-page manifestos composed largely of incoherent paranoia.
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Max™

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2016, 10:44:14 pm »

I'll have you know my manifesto was easily 600k pages of coherent paranoia...
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Egan_BW

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2016, 10:51:39 pm »

crazies who type up million-page manifestos composed largely of incoherent paranoia.
aka frequent posters in the ameripol thread
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Veylon

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2016, 01:48:21 am »

How do marginals figure in? If, say, the minimum is 15,000 votes and a guy has, look at that, 15,000 votes, does he get kicked out of the chamber immediately? If not, when? If so, does he come right back as soon as a new person votes for him? What if he hopscotches back and forth? That would make workin very hard, since he'd never know whether he'll have voting privileges or not at any given time. A minor issue, but there's more.
The most obvious way to solve this problem is to have the top X people rather than a threshold. I mean, the chamber only physically has so much space; it'd be better to keep the crowd at a constant size. Timewise, the obvious solution is to reallocate at fixed intervals. It could be a day or a week or a month or whatever. The hopscotchers are going to be the ones with the fewest votes in the chamber anyway, so it shouldn't have that much of an impact anyway.

Second question: Isn't this system vulnerable to opinion swings? Suppose an article comes out that lambasts Rep. So-and-So (who was a very popular guy) for cheating on Mrs. So-and-So. He was working on a bill with a group of other people. Now he loses the votes to pass this bill. Maybe they were working on this a while, and now all of the Parliament sits on its hands until he gets better. Do they start working on a new thing until he gets better? Does that imply a world of alternative laws just floating about, waiting for the number of votes to come in? Isn't this just rule by media? Another issue.
It's a democracy. Vulnerability to mood swings is inherent in the system. There has always been the risk of votes suddenly not forthcoming when public opinion is against it; the first attempt to bail out the banks in 2008-9 failed when Representatives got cold feet after being inundated by angry mail. If a bill fails due to this it only had marginal support anyway, so I'm not worried too much about it. And there have always been phantom bills floating around waiting for their time to come.
Third Question: What about repeal? You said a minority is needed to enact. What is necessary to repeal? Does repeal require the same number? Presumably, then, the number of votes necessary to pass laws would need to be such that there could not exist two seperate-but-opposed blocs can enact and repeal the same law infinitely. Are there limits on repeal? Can the bureaucracy be in the middle of bringing about some law, only for the number of votes needed to repeal fly up because of a single day's unflattering headline? Do they keep working on it? For how long? If it's scrapped, what if the next day, a flattering news cycle leads to it being re-enacted? And related: imagine a Parliament of many single-issue activists. If the law-making barrier is too high, will it be possible to pass laws without making some omnibus bill in order to garner the necessary votes (this is similar to the old Congress habit of "earmarks", but for special issues)? All this leads up to my main point:

How is this parliament supposed to do its business? With members dropping in and out at will, votes going up and down depending on the daily media cycle, laws enacted and repealed at will, it seems very difficult for members to actually work. How is the business of making laws supposed to happen in this stock-market democracy of yours? Where is the power of institution? How would these people handle crisis? Or budgeting? What failsafes are there beyond voters recognizing the issues inherent in the system and acting to prevent them? For some of these, that may be easy, but, say, people deciding to actively avoid changing their votes in budgeting season is unlikely to catch on. There are a lot of questions.
The obvious solution is to require a threshold for passing above 50%. If it's 60% than there are 40% against it and public opinion would have to shift by twenty points to repeal, which seems like it wouldn't happen overnight.

I think the important thing to remember is that politicians are almost infinitely replaceable in this scenario. Let's imagine that Mister A has a horrific scandal and his constituents abandon him. Where they are going to go is to someone very much like Mister A - minus the scandal - and the overall political character of the chamber is unaffected. Votes that backed a Conservative aren't going to fly to a Liberal due to a politician falling away the way they do now. They'll go to another Conservative who will vote nearly identically to Mister A, who can then step into Mister A's shoes.

Another thing to point out is that single-issue activists will be gone. Today, if you have a single issue that is all important to you, you may have to vote for someone who disagrees with you on many other things in order to support that single issue because the number of politicians is very limited for any position. But in a forwarding system, you can choose a politician who agrees with you on almost everything. There would be dozens or even hundreds of potential choices who all share your views on that single issue you care about and you can shop around for the perfect one.

Crises and budgets would almost have to involve the Executive branch the way they do now. You can't have a situation where nobody proposes a budget or a response to a crisis; that would be a disaster.
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Helgoland

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2016, 05:54:09 am »

Pretty much all this. The requirement for passing (and repealing) laws probably should be 50% of the votes represented in parliament, to keep things simple, with something like 2/3 of all votes required for a change to the constitution.
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Tack

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2016, 07:08:52 am »

But yeah reverting to 'it should be digitized'.
If it's a newer, modern, internet form of government, it's great.

But at that point wouldn't it be better off as democratic socialism, where you just keep your vote and vote on every bill as it comes, with your 'government' app?
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Helgoland

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2016, 07:28:58 am »

That would just result in horrid amounts of regulatory capture. Representation is a thing for a reason.
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I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

Tack

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2016, 07:53:31 am »

Yes, but does it really need to be?
Let's face it, representatives are driven by standard human nature to represent themselves.
Although there's that assumption that people in politics are somehow more well-informed than the average human in the internet age, we're still making concessions every time we vote, because there's always got to be something we wouldn't agree with our representative on.

Which would mean that if we were able to real-time change our votes based on whatever was being voted on currently... we'd already be personally voting for something. We'd just be having politicians telling us helpful 'facts' in order to try and buy our votes.
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misko27

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Re: A proposed new method of organizing a representative democracy
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2016, 09:49:06 am »

Not necessarily, Tack. Parliament (or at least Congress, I don't know how this works elsewhere) has to make bills before voting on them. One of my major points was the disconnect between the ease of voting, and the difficulty of writing bills.
The most obvious way to solve this problem is to have the top X people rather than a threshold. I mean, the chamber only physically has so much space; it'd be better to keep the crowd at a constant size. Timewise, the obvious solution is to reallocate at fixed intervals. It could be a day or a week or a month or whatever. The hopscotchers are going to be the ones with the fewest votes in the chamber anyway, so it shouldn't have that much of an impact anyway.
Interesting. The exact details of the fixed intervals would matter, though. Thought: Let's say you want to be in Parliament. You have votes, but not enough (almost enough). Couldn't you just slander the bottom person out of a job?


Quote
It's a democracy. Vulnerability to mood swings is inherent in the system. There has always been the risk of votes suddenly not forthcoming when public opinion is against it; the first attempt to bail out the banks in 2008-9 failed when Representatives got cold feet after being inundated by angry mail. If a bill fails due to this it only had marginal support anyway, so I'm not worried too much about it. And there have always been phantom bills floating around waiting for their time to come.
Sure, but "vulnerability to dramatic swings in opinion" is not often touted as one of Democracy's benefits, because dramatic swings of policies are counter-productive. So unpassed bills aren't worried, about, ok that makes sense. What about ones that are already law? What if, say, Obamacare was repealed after it's difficult rollout, but there is not enough support to replace it? You say "If a bill fails due to this it only had marginal support anyway, so I'm not worried too much about it.", but you miss the point. All bills with enough support become laws after all, no matter how marginal, and there are conceptual, legal, and most importantly, practical issues behind the entire legal force of a law "flickering" on-and-off depending on the day or the week or the month. This is a question of practice.
Quote
The obvious solution is to require a threshold for passing above 50%. If it's 60% than there are 40% against it and public opinion would have to shift by twenty points to repeal, which seems like it wouldn't happen overnight.
Fair enough, but I will say that 60% is not enough to totally insulate it from the tyranny of the polls and focus groups. More generally: This still means that the system still has the "Whoever owns the media owns Parliament".

Quote
I think the important thing to remember is that politicians are almost infinitely replaceable in this scenario. Let's imagine that Mister A has a horrific scandal and his constituents abandon him. Where they are going to go is to someone very much like Mister A - minus the scandal - and the overall political character of the chamber is unaffected. Votes that backed a Conservative aren't going to fly to a Liberal due to a politician falling away the way they do now. They'll go to another Conservative who will vote nearly identically to Mister A, who can then step into Mister A's shoes.
This isn't true. Politicians aren't infinitely replicable. That's just straight up wrong. Even in the US there is a finite number of people willing and able to become members of Congress. People who actually have skill or talent at it - the elusive statesmen, rather than a politician - are worth their weight in gold. Even beyond that standard, people who have legislative experience is not infinite, and since the only standard for winning is convincing a certain number of supporters to your cause, I suspect their'd be a strong dearth of that. My point here is simply that Congressional culture matters, and you can't just argue it away. This system could have activists, professional politicians, university professors and everything in between fighting for influence.

Quote
Another thing to point out is that single-issue activists will be gone. Today, if you have a single issue that is all important to you, you may have to vote for someone who disagrees with you on many other things in order to support that single issue because the number of politicians is very limited for any position. But in a forwarding system, you can choose a politician who agrees with you on almost everything. There would be dozens or even hundreds of potential choices who all share your views on that single issue you care about and you can shop around for the perfect one.
Believable enough. Still didn't answer how to prevent Omnibus bills from occuring.

Quote
Crises and budgets would almost have to involve the Executive branch the way they do now. You can't have a situation where nobody proposes a budget or a response to a crisis; that would be a disaster.
The question of how the executive branch and this Parliament interacts is worth a short book on its own.

Here is a question. Let's say someone is corrupt. Not a member of Congress, but a lobbyist is bribing people. How does this system handle this? Does it? Presumably, it would be a lot easier to corrupt the relatively few people with most votes.

How does Legislative process work? Who runs this, and decides who votes? There has to be congressional process, but that would be non-trivial if congressional power shifted constantly.

EDIT: More generally, it seems like this system makes democracy a lot more vulnerable to short-term fluctuations of all types (corruption, crisis, bad news cycle), while arguing that whatever results is acceptable as long as there is a sufficient reaction against it later to fix it. But it seems like that would either paralyze government, or strongly weaken laws from Parliament. You're already taking away the ability to budget from it (with good reason, mind), isn't budget really the biggest power in government already?  If Parliament constantly changes, or doesn't change, both results weaken it.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 10:09:20 am by misko27 »
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