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Author Topic: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions  (Read 6551 times)

Teneb

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☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« on: September 16, 2016, 02:14:03 pm »

Insert fancy picture with features here.

Okay, so: about a month and half ago, I approached Meph with my intent to make a race for Masterwork. Unlike my ill-fated attempt to make Goblins for Old!Masterwork, I had no intention of abandoning this project. Most of the time since was spent on design, when not being sidetracked by Real Life stuff or fixing stuff in the Warhammer mod. You may have also noted that there haven't been elves in the "next playable race" polls Meph does for a few releases.

So how do they look right now? Pretty bare, but also completely playable and different enough that I am making this and have already sent stuff to Meph to judge. But you came here for the features, so:

  • No woodcutting or wood burning.
  • Grow wood from seeds.
  • Infuse wood with ores (copper, iron, platinum, warpstone).
  • Wood equipment.
  • A workshop that changes based on the current season.
  • Season-based treants and wood.
  • At peace with wildlife.
  • Fabulous unicorns.
  • Glorious tree-hugging 1960s hippie style.
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Teneb

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2016, 02:14:28 pm »

Reserved just in case
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LMeire

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2016, 03:53:02 pm »

Some ideas:

Compost heaps instead of crematories to greenhouse-grow underground plants.
Some association with faeries and/or dryads, maybe as pets or a way to create fae-citizens.
Similar arrangement with animal people, maybe a way to mutate normal animals into sapient citizens.
Weaponized enchanted psychedelics, ranging from making enemies get dizzy to changing their perceptions so thoroughly that they actually become groups of assorted wild animals and scurry away.
Different castes based on the season they were born in, perhaps a transformation interaction they can use as soon as they turn 1?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 03:57:40 pm by LMeire »
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Teneb

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2016, 04:15:21 pm »

Compost heaps instead of crematories to greenhouse-grow underground plants.
This is nice. But if it required seeds, it'd be somewhat subpar... maybe trade in corpses for a chance at underground plants?

Some association with faeries and/or dryads, maybe as pets or a way to create fae-citizens.
Already in the plans.

Similar arrangement with animal people, maybe a way to mutate normal animals into sapient citizens.
I wasn't exactly sure how I'd handle animalmen, but this is a good one assuming DFHack cooperates.

Weaponized enchanted psychedelics, ranging from making enemies get dizzy to changing their perceptions so thoroughly that they actually become groups of assorted wild animals and scurry away.
This I don't know. I originally planned to add some poisons, but Meph thought it wouldn't fit a race that was supposed to be good.

Different castes based on the season they were born in, perhaps a transformation interaction they can use as soon as they turn 1?
This, while neat, would require Roses (or some other hack wizard) to whip up a script to do that.
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Meph

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 04:36:43 pm »

You need to find a core game mechanic that sets them apart from the other races.

Dwarves = Magma-use and adamantine, mechanics and mining/ore-processor/archeology.
Humans = Surface fortresses, trading and guilds.
Kobolds = Dirt-digging only, indirect combat/poisons, use of animal materials.
Orcs = Raiding of other races, hand-crafted single items.
Succubi = Summoning and corrupting units, fire-immunity, free fuel/magma.

Elves = ?

I did push for the seasonal workshops/reactions, because that is what I would have done if I were writing them. Also a lot with animal training, animal breeding and plant-based production of items. Slow growth of materials, get trees/wood from farmplots. Some form of good magic, healing and resurrection as high-end feature. I'd limit their use of "dead" materials, like stone, gems and ores; same for animal materials, instead focus on woods and plant fiber. Also hives... special insects they can breed and use for item-gain. Maybe ask IndigoFenix if he could update his druidism script for 43.03.
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::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
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Teneb

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2016, 04:43:23 pm »

Yeah. Actually, I'm going to ask that you don't include it just yet. It's got a base, but have to build on it.

I don't think the gnome druidism fits that well. How would you limit the use stone and other inorganics?
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Teneb

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2016, 08:55:26 pm »

Spent some hours brainstorming more ideas for the civs. I'd like if people went through it, pick it apart and suggest other things.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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chaosfiend

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2016, 12:00:48 am »

Any good old Elvish Cannibalism gonna be included?
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Bainin

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2016, 01:28:23 am »

How about something along the line of Animal Mastery and Call of the wild and One with Nature.
 
Animal Mastery = allows elves to Fully tame all animals and make them into war animals xD

Call of the Wild = lets them "call" wild animals if they don´t live in their biom naturally basically allows them to call for giraffes while in Temperate biom and make them into War/Hunting animals..
would be cool if they could mount Animals/beasts but i doubt thats doable just jet.

One with Nature basically all animals are Friendly and don´t need to be caught in cages in order to be tamed.

maybe Expert Breeder stuff lets them breed Normal animals into Giant or maybe more creative things xD


basically since they are nature hippies i would love to see them use animals alot =) they do trade a nice variation of fully tamed animals like tigers in vanilla too if i remember right.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 01:30:11 am by Bainin »
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Meph

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2016, 03:22:22 am »

Btw, did you have a look at this: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=9346



Spoiler: raws part1 (click to show/hide)
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
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Meph

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2016, 03:23:27 am »

Spoiler: raws part 2 (click to show/hide)

Quote
I did not make the full building raws, only the designs. So no hotkeys, building tags or buildmats yet. Mostly because I didnt know in which order they go into the menu and which ones are just concepts, and which will be added in the end.

I made all pagodas greenish and similar in style (Sylvan), all yurts brownish and similar in style (Ashlanders), and the high-elven stuff white. I think a few drow-buildings would be fine as well, removing the drows as a race, having them as a caste for the elves instead.

All of the buildings are square and can be accessed from all sides. The workshops are all small, while the more high-end things that you only make once, like the Silmaril Forge and the Feary Ring and Treant Moot are larger.

Edit: Typo in SIETCH, I forgot the T. ^^

Just wanted to let you know that you are not the first to try your hands on elves, there were a lot of ideas flying around. Both here http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=125641.0 and http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=143563.0
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::: ☼Meph Tileset☼☼Map Tileset☼- 32x graphic sets with TWBT :::
::: ☼MASTERWORK DF☼ - A comprehensive mod pack now on Patreon - 250.000+ downloads and counting :::
::: WorldBicyclist.com - Follow my bike tours around the world - 148 countries visited :::

Teneb

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2016, 05:53:20 am »

Any good old Elvish Cannibalism gonna be included?
There is a bug in the current version of DF that prevents corpses from being used for anything that's not burial, regardless of ethics. That said, the ethic do allow for eating intelligent creatures, so if it ever gets fixed it will happen on its own.

-snip-
Most of the stuff here is either planned (spawning more exotic animals and converting regular ones to giant ones) or impossible (mounts, self-taming (though this one may be possible with dfhackery, I don't know)).

-snip-
Yeah, I based some stuff, like the mushroom ring and the wild hunt stuff above, on that. I somewhat dislike the whole repeated reactions thing, for stuff that already exists in vanilla, but that is mostly personal preference.
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Evans

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2016, 08:05:00 am »

Please make sure that faerie will be there as a source of faerie dust.
This could be further mixed with steel to create faesteel - something just as good but lighter than original steel.

Similar arrangement with animal people, maybe a way to mutate normal animals into sapient citizens.
I wasn't exactly sure how I'd handle animalmen, but this is a good one assuming DFHack cooperates.
Cooperates.
My current fort has Hippo Man Sentinel and two Elephant Men Heavies guarding it from harm.
create-unit allows you to generate fully fledged fort citizen of any race.

Btw you should see what properly trained Elephant Man can do to intruders, when armed in full plate, tower shield and with a platinum maul.
Although the only valid metal to make armours for them is mithril - full plate set of steel weights like 1k in total.

But still. All of the sudden all those minotaurs and jotuns seem to be *somewhat* less dangerous.

Perhaps a building that would allow an elven noble to make "an offering to the beasts" and use meat to summon lion men or plants to summon elephant/hippo/rhino men with some small chance (think of Meph personal shrine building) would be good here.
It would also have a good impact on fps - people would utilize their food stacks.

Just keep in mind Animal Men have to have their [MEANDERER] tag removed otherwise they will not function correctly.

Quote
Weaponized enchanted psychedelics, ranging from making enemies get dizzy to changing their perceptions so thoroughly that they actually become groups of assorted wild animals and scurry away.
This I don't know. I originally planned to add some poisons, but Meph thought it wouldn't fit a race that was supposed to be good.
Succubi have this.
Besides these do not have to be poisons, but a fae dust with some *extra* components.

Quote
Different castes based on the season they were born in, perhaps a transformation interaction they can use as soon as they turn 1?
This, while neat, would require Roses (or some other hack wizard) to whip up a script to do that.
Not sure if elves should be caste society. Plenty of castes to go around already in all those races.

I am not sure if it would be a very good idea to modify elves so far from vanilla. They are good as they are, perhaps just add them some elvish magic (like fae dust above) rather than to rebuild them from scratch.

That being said.
Elves come in different types. Wood elves, high elves, grey elves, dark elves, etc.
Being "good" doesn't mean being defenseless, fantasy elves have long history for violence and warfare.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2016, 10:38:28 am by Evans »
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getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()

Teneb

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2016, 12:02:30 pm »

Please make sure that faerie will be there as a source of faerie dust.
This could be further mixed with steel to create faesteel - something just as good but lighter than original steel.
I'd rather not have elves using metal more than they have to. It's the whole point behind the infused wood.

Similar arrangement with animal people, maybe a way to mutate normal animals into sapient citizens.
I wasn't exactly sure how I'd handle animalmen, but this is a good one assuming DFHack cooperates.
Cooperates.
My current fort has Hippo Man Sentinel and two Elephant Men Heavies guarding it from harm.
create-unit allows you to generate fully fledged fort citizen of any race.
Thing is, I wasn't talking about create-unit. I've seen some crashes happen when you try to target a non-worker with reaction-trigger. If it was just spawning the animalmen from thin air, it'd be pretty easy.

Just keep in mind Animal Men have to have their [MEANDERER] tag removed otherwise they will not function correctly.
This is really nice to know.
Quote
Weaponized enchanted psychedelics, ranging from making enemies get dizzy to changing their perceptions so thoroughly that they actually become groups of assorted wild animals and scurry away.
This I don't know. I originally planned to add some poisons, but Meph thought it wouldn't fit a race that was supposed to be good.
Succubi have this.
Besides these do not have to be poisons, but a fae dust with some *extra* components.
I ended up going with coating weapons/ammo with fairy dust to cause erratic behaviour on those it hits.
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Evans

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Re: ☼Elves☼ - Discussion & Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2016, 01:18:40 pm »


I'd rather not have elves using metal more than they have to. It's the whole point behind the infused wood.
AFAIR elves in tolkien realm created most of the named weapons back then.
I'm not exactly sure where the idea of the elves not working with metal or stone came from.
I mean both are natural - stone comes from rocks and so does metal. Extracting it with help of plants guided by enchanted plants or magic seems pretty reasonable for me.
Besides without metals they will get eaten during a worldgen. They already do.


Thing is, I wasn't talking about create-unit. I've seen some crashes happen when you try to target a non-worker with reaction-trigger. If it was just spawning the animalmen from thin air, it'd be pretty easy.
It works well enough for me. As I said, I created few animal men units and they are doing just fine.
They have names, they have personalities etc. Created unit is no longer tabula rasa as it was in 0.34.
Meph's personal shrine spawns items from the thin air. Why would it be any different?

Quote
Just keep in mind Animal Men have to have their [MEANDERER] tag removed otherwise they will not function correctly.
This is really nice to know.
They move at 1/3 of their speed and constantly repath due to the tag. Bug is in the tracker along with the workaround.
I think c_variation_default.txt should be updated with remove tag for meanderer.
Should solve problem globally until the bug is fixed.

Quote
I ended up going with coating weapons/ammo with fairy dust to cause erratic behaviour on those it hits.
Well... we will see what comes of that. I just hope they will not be totally different.

I have a lot of love for elven race and wouldn't like to see them nerfed. They were the primary source of mithril for me back then.
And they always brought me many exotic pets to raise after sieges.
Logged
getlost.lua # How to get rid of tavern guests
function getlost ()
   local unit = dfhack.gui.getSelectedUnit (true)
   unit.flags1.forest = true
end
getlost ()
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