Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 26

Author Topic: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Seeking replacement GM)  (Read 32929 times)

Kot

  • Bay Watcher
  • 2 Patriotic 4 U
    • View Profile
    • Tiny Pixel Soldiers
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2016, 12:36:25 pm »

-Better radios, since ours are 60 pounds and are huge
I think that usual WW2 backpack radio weights around 20 kgs, so it's not that bad.
-Improving the ability of our troops to fight
I'm not even sure we know anything about Sectoids at this point.
-Radio navigation for aircraft and the navy
So... radar?
-Sonar
They come from sky.
-Torpedos
See above.
-better Anti-air systems, mostlyat this point in the form of rapid fire SPAA
Fire laying radars are one of main anti-air advancements, especially at night.
-standardizing ammunition
Not that important now.
-better bombers
Why?
-better fighters
Good luck catching UFOs.
-Rapid troop movement(IFVs, APCs, helicopters or some combination)
So... Mi-24? We're a bit too early for that, and it's not like we need Skyrangers to get anywhere on Forenia anyways.
-An actual working navy
Why?
Logged
Kot finishes his morning routine in the same way he always does, by burning a scale replica of Saint Basil's Cathedral on the windowsill.

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2016, 12:54:59 pm »

 The walkie-talkie(the backpack radio units(handheld units where handie-talkies)) weighed 38.23 pounds and had a range of three miles with an extra-long antenna.
 Radar does not equal radio navigation.
 We likely are not to just fight aliens, there is a world war on afterall. Chances are we get dragged in one one side or another.
 Yes, this is true, but fire control radar does bugger-all if theres nothing to control the fire of.
 Simplifying logistics for combat units is always important. Always.
 Our bombers are late 1920s tech in most respects. Short range, fabric skin,fixed landing gear, no radio...
 See point about also having to deal with humans probably. Also includes things like jet aircraft, rocket interceptors, etc.
 Not necessarily Mi-24s, something like a Husky could work fine. But as it is, our troops walk, ride on the top of a tank, motorcycle or armored car, or else go by truck. However, helicopters are also extremely useful for naval gubbins.
 Because being an island nation with no navy is just asking to be invaded or/and its convoys raided at will. Its like building a bank vault and forgetting to put in three walls and the ceiling.
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

andrea

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #62 on: September 16, 2016, 01:18:40 pm »

lets see...

-Sonar
-Torpedoes
-Bombers
-Fighters
-Rapid troop movement
-An actual working navy

Are all design level proposals, so they don't conflict with a radar upgrade this turn


-Self propelled AA

might work as a revision to get a subpar system, but we have the problem of not having any way to track targets outside a small area around our targets. Why worry about mobile AA, when we can only see enemy in few small fixed points?

-Improving the ability of our troops to fight

Extremely vague and most ways to achieve this are likely design level. Plus, we have no idea what we are fighting and how

-Standardized ammunition

Great thing, sure. However, since I doubt a revision can rechamber all our guns, this will have to be achieved simply by designing all our new stuff with a standard set in mind.


Now to the things which I believe would actually work in revision

-Radio navigation

This is Radar, just the targets has the courtesy to beam you the signal rather than having to listen to bounces. Aside form that, it is exactly the same in terms of needed tech and engineering. Improving our RDF means the ability to do radio navigation.

-Better radios

This is a good thing to have, we will need to have good and reliable communication to win this or any other war.


So we have radio and radar. Our communications are currently subpar, that is true. But to track UFOs we still basically rely on visual identification. 17 km is SHORT. enemy crafts will appear and disappear from our RDF range in no time.

Personally, I believe we need the RDF now, so that we can see alien movements as soon as possible and plan accordingly. Then, next turn we should get a rocket place and a radio revision, so that we have both the detection capacity and the interceptors to try to engage the enemy in the sky.

Then we can start worrying about the rest. And I don't think we will end up invaded, but if we manage to salvage alien tech by actually tracking and shooting down the UFOs, foreign nations will be met with walls of plasma guns.

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #63 on: September 16, 2016, 01:39:54 pm »

 Yaknow, thats something thats always bugged me, laser guns and plasmathrowers. Lasers because of the atmosphere doign its best to weaken them, and plasma throwers because they are rather short ranged, since you need to keep that glob of plasma together and every way used in fiction or tried out doesn't last all that long.

 Rocket planes are rather farther down my list than yours, apparently. After all, there are abductions going on where the aliens are landing to steal people. Get troops there fast enough and we can get mostly intact UFOs. And to do that, we need good communications systems to let them know where one is and ways to get them there fast enough. Then of course good weapons to put holes in the aliens. So, they way I see our priorities, its >better radio >transport/heavy infantry weapons >infantry support vehicles/radar >the rest of the list.
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

andrea

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #64 on: September 16, 2016, 01:50:17 pm »

You know, if we could see them coming early and track their direction, we could get a paratrooper squad airborne as soon as they enter our airspace and have it land nearby little time after they land. That is without the issue of having to distribute radios to every little farmhouse or mountain hole in the country, which is where abductions likely happen.

Furthermore, all we know of the enemy right now is the hull shape and materials of their crafts. That is it. How can we pick doctrines with this little to work on?  heavy weapons, light weapons, are tanks useful? in which places do they usually land, how do they fight. This first turn, I believe we should focus on tracking and observing their behavior. And for that I propose the RDF.


Well, I believe we debated this to death by now. We likely discussed all valid and invalid points pro and against each idea.

unless somebody changes his vote, the radio seems set to win 3-2 against the RDF.

Aseaheru

  • Bay Watcher
  • Cursed by the Elves with a title.
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2016, 02:02:12 pm »

 Well, with all the constant fighting since pre-history most houses are probably grouped together some, similar to how much of it is in Europe or was in the early days of 'Murica. Lessens the number of radios needed then.

 Using paratroopers makes the need for light heavy weapons for infantry. Currently we are limited to what, a mortar+pistol, mortar ammo+pistol, rifle, smg, LMG with minimal ammo?
Logged
Highly Opinionated Fool
Warning, nearly incapable of expressing tone in text

stabbymcstabstab

  • Bay Watcher
  • OW SNAP!
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2016, 02:40:02 pm »

We might want to design a new assault rifle sonce both are kinda clumsy in close quarters, in a war that'll involve a lot of boarding actions and urban warfare.

And I'll vote for the RDF instead of the radio after reading the pro-cons
Logged
Long Live Arst- United Forenia!
"Wanna be a better liberal? Go get shot in the fuckin' face."
Contemplate why we have a sociopathic necrophiliac RAPIST sadomasochist bipolar monster in our ranks, also find some cheese.

andrea

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2016, 02:42:31 pm »

yes, we are limited to that. And we have no information about the usefulness of the equipment we have. As far as we know, those UFOs might be full of unarmed scientists which can't fight back. Or loaded with mechs which require our heaviest anti tank. Or maybe the aliens use very fast units and camouflage?

The topic of what equipment our ground soldiers need can wait until next turn. Right now, we know nothing.

Zanzetkuken The Great

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Wizard Dragon
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2016, 03:48:45 pm »

Need a tie-breaking vote now...
Logged
Quote from: Eric Blank
It's Zanzetkuken The Great. He's a goddamn wizard-dragon. He will make it so, and it will forever be.
Quote from: 2016 Election IRC
<DozebomLolumzalis> you filthy god-damn ninja wizard dragon

andrea

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2016, 04:09:01 pm »

Currently we have

Radio
-Aseaheru
-Happerry

RDF v2
-RAM
-Stabbymcstabstab
-3_14159


Did I miss anyone?

If you need a stronger advantage, either wait or when you think everyone who cared already voted, I'll tie break voting for the RDF v2.
Both leading proposals are mine, so not voting for my own ideas is less important right now.

Zanzetkuken The Great

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Wizard Dragon
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2016, 04:19:56 pm »

Currently we have

Radio
-Aseaheru
-Happerry

RDF v2
-RAM
-Stabbymcstabstab
-3_14159


Did I miss anyone?

If you need a stronger advantage, either wait or when you think everyone who cared already voted, I'll tie break voting for the RDF v2.
Both leading proposals are mine, so not voting for my own ideas is less important right now.

Double counted by mistake.  I'll put the results in a bit.
Logged
Quote from: Eric Blank
It's Zanzetkuken The Great. He's a goddamn wizard-dragon. He will make it so, and it will forever be.
Quote from: 2016 Election IRC
<DozebomLolumzalis> you filthy god-damn ninja wizard dragon

andrea

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #71 on: September 16, 2016, 05:27:02 pm »

I hope the revision goes well. After all the fighting I did over this, it would be embarassing if it failed horribly.

RAM

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #72 on: September 16, 2016, 05:57:31 pm »

The walkie-talkie(the backpack radio units(handheld units where handie-talkies)) weighed 38.23 pounds and had a range of three miles with an extra-long antenna.
That is very important when your troops are deployed, but we are expecting lots of downtime with everyone standing around at barracks and occasionally running off to some specific site to investigate. So long as we an mount it in an aeroplane there is no problem.
We likely are not to just fight aliens, there is a world war on afterall. Chances are we get dragged in one one side or another.
Possible, but it doesn't seem imminent.
Simplifying logistics for combat units is always important. Always.
That is the problem with generalisations. Things that are true for every example you have ever encountered will seem like universal laws. If we ship every weapon with enough ammunition to remain in combat for 48 hours then it should last for a couple of years. We are in all likelihood the victim of wide-ranging very small-scale very brief engagements. The supply lines in terms of life-support and equipment maintenance are a big deal because we want our forces to be stationed at all sorts of remote bases, but ammunition takes a fair while to perish from age and it won't be seeing much use outside of random shootings, which, admittedly, will be a problem, no doubt the quarterly "shoot into the air for the thrill of being Foreignian" celebration is a logistical issue to be managed, but in practical terms this is basically a complete non-issue. But obviously, future designs should conform to some sort of agreed-upon standard as this may be a non-issue for our current hostilities but it is still good practise. I like to double these things and use integers...
 So a 4mm round for concealed weapons and high-volume low-penetration weaponry for when you want to shoot hundreds of rounds blindly around a corner without making a mess of every suburban home in the area.
 8mm will be your standard general-purpose anti-personnel round.
 16mm can be a handy sniper-round for when you don't want your bullets to be too concerned with wind conditions, dust clouds, brick walls, body-armour...
 32mm for when you want your vehicle's anti-personnel heavy machine rifle to deal with light armoured vehicles and to completely destroy whatever part of the human body it encounters and to expand the definition of "soft cover"... Also useful for an anti-tank rifle if you like that sort of thing...
 Then you start over for artillery:
 40 mm for rate-of-fire and if you just need a gun and want to keep the prices down.
 80mm will defeat most armour without breaking the bank.
 160mm will suit your tank-destroyers and serves as a nice utility round for howitzers.
 320mm is great if your want to make an impression...
Our bombers are late 1920s tech in most respects. Short range, fabric skin,fixed landing gear, no radio...
Granted, radio is an issue, but we really can't expect our bombers to catch theirs, and bombing really isn't the priority. Dive-bombers will probably be needed early to keep landed craft on the ground, but otherwise... We really need something dramatic-to-the-point-of-stupidity if we want to even engage the enemy in the air, and we should assume that they can board their craft and lift off in the time that it takes for a paratrooper to land from a safe altitude, far less actually attain a safe altitude to drop from if they start from the ground. Now, if we are proposing permanent air coverage with, like, 124-hour flight-times then go for it, but I do not see that being viable in a hurry on anything combat effective, and the troops would definitely land fatigued...
Because being an island nation with no navy is just asking to be invaded or/and its convoys raided at will. Its like building a bank vault and forgetting to put in three walls and the ceiling.
Somewhat, but an aerial force can engage naval targets. Our navy can consist entirely of scouts until we are ready to conquer the world...


Honestly, I am really dubious about the value of paratroopers. They are sort of really slow once you get down to it. They are famous for being fast because they sort of need to be, but it is all a big mess of making up for the inherent disadvantages to their speed. A grounded force will remain cohesive, have a full supply of equipment, including vehicles and ammunition to burn, their chain of command and objectives will be clear, and they will have access to reinforcements and such. Paratroopers are notoriously confused, poorly-equipped, lacking in support of any kind, and are generally a bit of a mess. The advantage of paratroopers is their ability to penetrate enemy lines in large numbers, and there are currently no enemy lines... Helicopters are a compromise, you are likely to see your commanding officer prior to the end of the war, you can carry some heavy equipment and have some ammunition reserves(though no vehicles aside from the helicopter itself, and that probably doesn't even have a joyous 32mm armoured autocannon turret messing up the neighbourhood) but you are still keeping your weights and numbers low. Realistically, we are not going to capture anything until we can cripple a landed craft. Taking anything intact or dropping anything in the air is probably beyond us without extreme fortune or overconfidence playing a role.
Logged
Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

andrea

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #73 on: September 16, 2016, 06:05:02 pm »

well yes, paratroopers are at best a stopgap measure to try to engage during the first, second turn. Clearly we need to develope a good helicopter later for better transportation. But it will take a few turns. Meanwhile, we can use what we have to try to pin them down while proper ground forces arrive: dive bombers, paratroopers, etc.

By the way, while our bombers don't have radio ( are we sure?), I remember some fighters from the last war having radios. I think moskurg, but we might have fit some on Arstotzka side as well.

overall, the big priorities next turn will depend heavily on what happens at the end of this turn.

I like your armor standardization. However, for a matter of being practial we might want to use already existing dimensions where possible.
Now I want a 32 mm autocannon for our crafts :P

Hm. I wonder what we should focus on for our aircrafts, cannons or missiles. I am not sure we can get both, with our limited design time. Perhaps cannons would be better due to our lack of guidance systems, but then we need to match their speed somehow.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 06:11:00 pm by andrea »
Logged

Zanzetkuken The Great

  • Bay Watcher
  • The Wizard Dragon
    • View Profile
Re: Arms Race: Forenia vs. Sectoids (Second Half of 1940, Revision)
« Reply #74 on: September 16, 2016, 06:08:57 pm »

Quote
UF-1940/2-RDF v2
This improvement usies a cavity magnetron to generate the electromagnetic pulse to allow it to work on much shorter wavelengths allowing better resolution and helping remove the interference caused by radios.  Improvements were also made to reduce complexity of the device.  However, as a side effect of desiring greater range and reducing complexity, the system is much larger than the original UF-1940/2-RDF.  It did increase the range to an average of 39 kilometers and a maximum of 51 kilometers.  The tower is still vulnerable to high winds.
Cost 7 Ore

New Tech: Cavity Magnetron
Decomplexified Tech: Radio Detection and Ranging
Current Expense Level: Very Expensive (resource shortage greater or equal to 3 increases by 2.)



Reverse Engineering Phase

Select one piece of recovered technology to attempt to study/reverse engineer.

Alloys the Excavated Site is built from.
Apparent Power Source of the Excavated Site.

(Not much right now, but the list will expand as stuff is actually captured.)



I hope the revision goes well. After all the fighting I did over this, it would be embarassing if it failed horribly.
i
I'll admit it.  I laughed when I saw this come up due to the new post warning.
Logged
Quote from: Eric Blank
It's Zanzetkuken The Great. He's a goddamn wizard-dragon. He will make it so, and it will forever be.
Quote from: 2016 Election IRC
<DozebomLolumzalis> you filthy god-damn ninja wizard dragon
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 ... 26