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[Neonivek]

Well, I can't see what else you mean by a need for mothers and fathers. If you're referring to biologically, that's entirely separate from gender roles.

A Mother and Father are both primary caregivers and in many ways equivalents... But they are not the same thing.

[Tawa]

Well, I can't see what else you mean by a need for mothers and fathers. If you're referring to biologically, that's entirely separate from gender roles.

A Mother and Father are both primary caregivers and in many ways equivalents... But they are not the same thing.

So then, define "mother" and "father".

[Neonivek]

https://www.google.ca/search?site=&source=hp&q=definition+of+mother&oq=definition+of+mother&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l4.590847.593557.0.593739.23.21.0.0.0.0.147.1976.14j6.20.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..3.19.1908.0..0i131k1j0i131i46k1j46i131k1.0n6GAI5nbjo

[Tawa]

1. a mother in relation to her child or children

Most experts agree the tautological argument is deeply flawed.

[smjjames]

1. a mother in relation to her child or children

Most experts agree the tautological argument is deeply flawed.

To be fair, you did ask for a definition.

[Tawa]

1. a mother in relation to her child or children

Most experts agree the tautological argument is deeply flawed.

To be fair, you did ask for a definition.

You have a point, but I figured it was implied that he would tell me what the important distinguishing features between a mother and a father are, outside of the mother being a woman and the father being a man.

I'm sorry if that last remark came off as rude, Neo, but what I mean is that thus far, you've said "mothers are women and fathers are men" and "mothers and fathers are important" without establishing a connection between these two statements.

[Neonivek]

It was less that it was rude but when someone asks you to define a very basic term... You get really suspicious.

I was like "Wait, are you making me define it so that to make some sort of statement on how men can be mothers and thus because they can take up that role that means the role doesn't exist? Or are you setting me up for another statement?"

[Tawa]

Ah, I see. I feel that men can take a stereotypically motherly role, and that women can take a stereotypically fatherly role, but agree that by strict definition of the term men cannot be mothers and women cannot be fathers.

So anyway, in what crucial ways outside of biology are mothers and fathers are different from one another?

[Neonivek]

Goodness you REALLY cannot unhinge mother and fatherhood from biology so easily...

I mean for example the mother's cooing and oscillation during the early years actually trains the babies ability to distinguish pitches. Though I guess that is biological (though I guess a guy could REALLY pitch his voice up)

The mother and the father also the first informants of femininity and masculinity. Deprivation of this has WAAAY exaggerated results mind you, but it is still important.

But even if that role is biologically informed, it is still a gender role nonetheless.

[smjjames]

I wonder if there are any languages that don't use 'mother' and 'father' (or translated equivalents) because, well, the roots of the two words are very old. In the Indo-European family tree (no idea about other language groups/family trees), everywhere you look, you'll find that the word for 'mother' or 'mama' is pretty similar throughout, same for 'father' or 'papa'. So, the roots of those words go all the way to the very origins of the Indo-European language family tree.

Goodness you REALLY cannot unhinge mother and fatherhood from biology so easily...

I mean for example the mother's cooing and oscillation during the early years actually trains the babies ability to distinguish pitches. Though I guess that is biological (though I guess a guy could REALLY pitch his voice up)

The mother and the father also the first informants of femininity and masculinity. Deprivation of this has WAAAY exaggerated results mind you, but it is still important.

But even if that role is biologically informed, it is still a gender role nonetheless.

Even then, there is a huge difference in how feminity and masculinity is viewed accross different cultures, and I don't mean just the modern world.

[Neonivek]

Even then, there is a huge difference in how feminity and masculinity is viewed accross different cultures, and I don't mean just the modern world.

Indeed, but the first informants are still the mother and father. If those standards change, so do the parents.

 

everywhere you look, you'll find that the word for 'mother' or 'mama' is pretty similar throughout, same for 'father' or 'papa'. So, the roots of those words go all the way to the very origins of the Indo-European language family tree

Father has a rather large variance in what it can sound like in different languages.

What has a interestingly similar sounding word in, what I am going to risk being wrong, MOST languages is Mother, Mom, Moma (These are just three examples not... The three ones )

People speculate the reason why "Mom" is a very similar word even in unrelated languages a lot of the time is because it is similar to a specific sound a baby makes.

[MrRoboto75]

The mother is the one the baby comes out of.  The father is how the baby was inside the mother in the first place.

Orphanage and adoption as well as divorce and remarriage make this more complicated.

[smjjames]

The mother is the one the baby comes out of.  The father is how the baby was inside the mother in the first place.

Orphanage and adoption as well as divorce and remarriage make this more complicated.

Culture as a whole makes it more complicated. Historically, across cultures, views on homosexuality were as varied as they are today. Though wikipedia being wikipedia, it doesn't list past cultures aside from Abrahamic religions that were anti-homosexual, so, I don't know how much of an anomaly it appears to be.

For things on parent roles (which we're currently discussing), you'd have to look at specific cultures.

[Neonivek]

And the anti-homosexual views of the Abrahamic religions might have had less to do with genuine anti-homosexual sentiment and more stemming naturally out of their weird sex obsession...

Even next to Chinese mysticism where people exchange life force via sex... Does the Abrahamic religions obsession with sex stand out.

[Cthulhu]

The question of abrahmic homophobia is also more nuanced than that.  The word being translated in the old testament is otherwise used to describe shrine prostitution for example.  Abrahamic laws in general are focused on ritualized exclusion and forming boundaries.  They were heavy into "other people do this, so you can't" logic.