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[NullForceOmega]

But when people use that as broad justification to say that 'no person who is not a member of [group] can understand' they are denying that life experiences like mine, where I was one of 4 white students out of 600 total, and was regularly threatened, harassed, and attacked for being white, ever occur

[TheBiggerFish]

But when people use that as broad justification to say that 'no person who is not a member of [group] can understand' they are denying that life experiences like mine, where I was one of 4 white students out of 600 total, and was regularly threatened, harassed, and attacked for being white, ever occur

Then they're wrong.

Also, that sucks.  :v

[TempAcc]

FD didn't imply it doesn't happen less with majority groups, though.

The argument in a nutshell appears to consist of this: FD mentions, in a way or another, that discrimination is a bad thing, and often happens between minority groups and other minority groups and between said minority groups and the majority, which is also discriminated again in a reactionary action on the part of said minority groups. Miauw then disagreed by saying the discrimination against majority groups is largely irrelevant, implying that majority groups can't possibly be discriminated against or know how it feels to be discriminated against. FD disagrees and thinks miauw is a belgian babby. miauw re-disagrees and thinks Flying Dice is the next comming of hitler.

_{Note: does any of this actualy reflect the actual discussion in any way? Absolutely not. I am a jerk and I'm currently bored, fite me IRL}

[miauw62]

In order: It was a description of the ideas enshrined in your ideology and of the consequences of attempting to force it upon the world.

why bother replying to my post specifically if your argument is against a perceived caricature of an ideology (e.g. the quote i was quoting) instead of against the points i was actually making?

but, for the record, i am indeed saying that some issues deserve more attention than others. and that these are usually the issues that already marginalized people experience. which are often dismissed and trivialized.

You have clear classes of "real victims" and trivialize all other suffering as "lel someone said something mean to me".

much like the quote i was replying to was (hopefully) a hyperbole, so was this. i did not discuss the people that do recognise the issues unprivileged groups experience, but i did adress the general tendency of the media to ignore them, and the people that say, for example, that catcalling should be considered flattery. which is a good example since it highlights the extent to which people tend to assume the most benign form of these issues in their minds, and the extent to which people underestimate the psychological effects of this. surely, being whistled to from across the street should be a compliment? but this isn't about being whistled to from across the street.

and it wasnt an unrelated argument. maybe next time you want to make a post like the one i was replying to in the happy thread, instead post it here and link the person you were going to quote?

and again with the thinly veiled insults, which you can't seem to leave out of your posts. i honestly don't understand why you have to be so incredibly defensive whenever you reply to me. yes, i challenge your points a lot because you express opinions that i disagree with often. i always try to be respectful about this, but your replies are invariably (not even passive-)agressive.

But when people use that as broad justification to say that 'no person who is not a member of [group] can understand' they are denying that life experiences like mine, where I was one of 4 white students out of 600 total, and was regularly threatened, harassed, and attacked for being white, ever occur

also i literally never said this so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ alright this was actually pretty fucking rude and i apologise. your point is a good one and i probably should've formulated it a little more clearly in my post.

FD didn't imply it doesn't happen less with majority groups, though.

The argument in a nutshell appears to consist of this: FD mentions, in a way or another, that discrimination is a bad thing, and often happens between minority groups and other minority groups and between said minority groups and the majority, which is also discriminated again in a reactionary action on the part of said minority groups. Miauw then disagreed by saying the discrimination against majority groups is largely irrelevant, implying that majority groups can't possibly be discriminated against or know how it feels to be discriminated against. FD disagrees and thinks miauw is a belgian babby. miauw re-disagrees and thinks Flying Dice is the next comming of hitler.

_{Note: does any of this actualy reflect the actual discussion in any way? Absolutely not. I am a jerk and I'm currently bored, fite me IRL}

this isnt what i said either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i was explaining why people would say a quote like FDs, but maybe that was my first mistake, because that was just a demonized strawman to begin with.

and hey maybe i would have agreed if the reply to my post wasnt a big picture of a strawman. but apparently some people can't do civil discourse.

[i2amroy]

Something is noticed is that the word "cis" seems to be very much on it's way of becoming a derogatory term.

What social media circles do you observe this in?
Is it direct or reported?

I can say that most of the times I ever hear the word nowadays is when people are using it in conjunction with the negative connotations of a sense of "not us". Can't really remember the last time I've actually seen it used in a more positive sense, every time it's always being used by someone who intrinsically places themselves as not a member of whatever group they are referring to.

[TheBiggerFish]

Yeah, it does seem like FD is misunderstanding miauw's position a little.

[Rolepgeek]

Animals are NO WHERE near as self-aware, rational, understanding, perceptive, insightful, creative, organised, coherent, calculating, restrained, detached, considerate, reflective, concentrated, focused, developed, mentally or emotionally compared to Humans.

Citation please.

[scriver]

i always try to be respectful about this, but your replies are invariably (not even passive-)agressive.
[...]
but apparently some people can't do civil discourse.

You say this, but your aggressive tone and arrogant and holier-than-thou attitude shows that either clearly you are not trying, or you are lacking in your sense of yourself.

And seriously, no, you don't get complain about people strawmanning you when this whole argument arose because of you building a huge strawman to begin with.

[Solifuge]

Hey, this is starting to look like it's gotten personal and really off-topic. Let's chill, and get back to talking about gender soon.

But first...

Animals are NO WHERE near as self-aware, rational, understanding, perceptive, insightful, creative, organised, coherent, calculating, restrained, detached, considerate, reflective, concentrated, focused, developed, mentally or emotionally compared to Humans.

Citation please.

This. Also you're painting in overly-broad strokes, friendo.

Without having to look very hard, I could cite solid evidence for several known cultures within populations of Orcas and Dolphin species, Gorillas, Baboons, Chimpanzees, and several Elephant species. Several groups are presently analyzing candidates for naturally occurring Dolphin-to-Dolphin "conversation" candidates. We've witnessed Baboon cultural shifts that upended things we used to label "Natural Baboon Behavior," which turned out to just be social customs that were taught to children and new immigrants to their groups. We've observed legitimate Elephant funeral rites. We've observed several animals practicing herbal self-medication; in at least the case of elephants, the knowledge of special leaves and bark to eat to induce labor is not "instinct", but is passed down within social groups. Hell, even Bees can learn and teach other bees complex tasks, even when they're nothing like they'd encounter in nature.

I agree that comparing the intelligence of Humans with other Animals is deeply flawed, but not for the reasons you're citing. We're extremely different biologically, and we don't have a holistic understanding of ourselves and our minds, let alone those of the other intelligent / social species on Earth. Also, it's important to not conflate Technology (Human Math or Language, or Elephant Herbal Medicine or Burial Rites) with Intelligence too. If you mean to compare us seriously, you'd need to define a truly standardized metric for Intelligence, or design tests that aren't biased toward Human-specific skills and aptitudes.

[Infinityforce]

Citation: Humans are remarkably self-aware and intelligent. Other animals may be exceptional and unique (and that's good) but humans are just in a different LEAGUE.

[Reelya]

Also, if you look at some studies of empathy in primates: I read about one study where they hooked up an electrocution thing to one monkey, which was triggered whenever a second monkey got food. They were previously trained to get the food with the lever. Additionally, monkeys who had been shocked themselves were more likely to starve themselves to prevent a different monkey being shocked. One monkey in the research starved itself for 12 days after noticing that they'd hooked another monkey up to the electrocution thing.

http://www.madisonmonkeys.com/masserman.pdf

I think that shows quite adequate self-awareness: they're able to recognize that another monkey is another sentient being capable of suffering, and to relate that back to their own experience. And then they refrain from behavior which benefits themselves because they're aware it's hurting someone else.

[TempAcc]

Animals are also able to help eachother for mutual gain, and some are even capable of intentional trickery. I saw these experiments with hyenas on youtube which are from a discovery channel with that lion whisperer personthing, and it showed hyenas working together to figure out puzzles in order to gain food. Not only were they were able to teach each other how to do it, but they even ignored their system of hierarchy while doing so (the higher ranked hyena actualy listened to the lower ranked one because it knew better at the time).
Another experiment had one hyena and several easily opened boxes with meat inside (and some manner of blocking the meat's scent). I dont quite remember how they executed the test, but it was done in a way that only one of the hyenas knew were the meat was, and then sent other, higher ranked hyenas in. The higher ranked ones expected the lower ranked one to show them were the meat was, but the lower ranked one actualy led them in circles until they got tired and left, and then and ONLY then did the lower ranked hyena go and fetch the meat from the place it was hidden in. This behavior is also sometimes observed in the wild.

Ofc, all animals suck in comparison to us, but most aren't full dweebs either.

Oh, also, lions are dumb as fuck.

[Flying Dice]

i dont really have a beef with you, i have a beef with discriminatory bullshit :v

ill happily come and call people out on it whenever i can bring up the effort.

Oh, and so much for "I don't call people bigots for disagreeing with me."

Wasn't trying to be insulting so much as chiding with the babby's first ideology bit. 'Cause, y'know, that shit happens. That's what teenagers do, they start forming their own worldviews, and those tend to first emerge as dogmatic adherence to some ultra-binary bullshit. There's the ones who start (quite ironically enough) worshipping Marx and venerating Mao or Castro, the little rich fuckers who immediately start smoking the traditional Rand-Smith poison, the weird one who becomes ultra-nostalgic for Reagan-era conservatism; I was a budding little anarchist myself.

But we tend to grow out of that, most of us. We realize that the world isn't some fantasy bullshit division between Good and Evil, that there aren't easy answers or solutions to most of our problems, that people the world over tend to live lives which are pretty similar in structure and emotion even if the content differs. The ones that don't are the fringe-radical assholes that make cooperation and understanding difficult from the rest of us. And when you look back at your own gestation as a political creature (or someone still going through it), it's really fucking obnoxious how single-minded people are at that age.

And it sure as shit don't change, I think most anyone who self-contemplates at all gets some bitter laughs about what they believed at most any point prior to the present. I'm sure that in thirty years, if I'm still alive, I'll think that the me of today was a know-nothing little shit. That's how humans work, we change over time, and the trend tends to be towards a more nuanced view of the world (until you go senile). Absolutism is for the very young and the willfully ignorant. None of us know or understand everything, so it's generally best to try to be open and understanding, since shutting people out and trying to divide the world into hostile camps incapable of comprehending each other doesn't do anyone any good.

In other words: life sucks, then you die. Most everyone has plentiful helpings of pain in their lives, even if it's not always the same sort or derived from the same sources, and acting as if they don't (or that it doesn't matter) is frankly really goddamn arrogant. Are they a person? If they are, then they matter, and their pain is real, regardless of what sort of bullshit you need to justify your special-snowflake syndrome or self-flagellation.

[chaoticag]

Hey, this is starting to look like it's gotten personal and really off-topic. Let's chill, and get back to talking about gender soon.

[Catmeat]

Wow a topic about sex sexuality and expression, things people have many diverse opinions about and its getting heated and off topic??!?!
Hahahaha if ever was a train to derail it this kind.

So while im here.. anyone down to dominate me?... my Kdr is 2.80