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Author Topic: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway  (Read 140025 times)

Harry Baldman

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #165 on: August 30, 2016, 04:12:12 am »

Yet... Why is it so important that I believe a sex change does this? Whenever I get people very passionate about this I can't help but feel like I am listening to someone who just so desperately wants something to work but is completely delusional to the extent that they have to make everyone take part in their fantasies because the reality of it all is too harsh.

If I had to guess, it's because you're undermining a treatment strategy for a serious psychological issue because of an insistence on technicality.

Sure, you can't actually change chromosomal sex entirely without genome-wide alteration, and no, uterus transplants don't actually work yet. But there's a whole lot of people to whom perceived sex matters a great deal, and I've always operated under the idea that if for anybody else beside them it doesn't matter all that much (beyond compulsive pedantry), let the people have the necessary distinction for their peace of mind.
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hops

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #166 on: August 30, 2016, 04:15:45 am »

Yeah, that is it exactly. I wouldn't see myself as female even if I got boobs, but it doesn't mean I won't have the respect to treat someone as their preferred gender.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #167 on: August 30, 2016, 04:19:21 am »

If I had to guess, it's because you're undermining a treatment strategy for a serious psychological issue because of an insistence on technicality.

It is kind of a big technicality... and on the other hand one that completely doesn't matter and it doesn't affect anything because a sex change isn't even remotely required to change ones gender.

Why is it so important that I believe that someone who goes through a sex change actually alters their sex?

I could even go as far as to say to lie and say that it does... does more harm as it creates a unrealistic fantasy as to what actually occurs. (and as people find out... Sex changes quite often do not fix gender dysphoria. But lets pretend it always does!)

Yeah, that is it exactly. I wouldn't see myself as female even if I got boobs, but it doesn't mean I won't have the respect to treat someone as their preferred gender.

There is a HUUUUGE difference in not believing Sex changes, change sex... And not respecting someone's gender.

And NO I am not going up to people and going "Ohh so your still a man", that isn't the situation... I'd be a total jerk.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 04:22:00 am by Neonivek »
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hops

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #168 on: August 30, 2016, 04:22:58 am »

Well that might be one of the reason why you're a miserable person with no friends.
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Phmcw

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #169 on: August 30, 2016, 04:25:13 am »

Yeah... you see... That was the assumption for quite some time and what they generally found out is.. No, sex matters.
I said "all that relevant" not "not relevant at all".

Peoples need to be told what they are, and it need to be validated constantly since identity is a social thing. We still don't understand these phenomenon too well, and lot of it is either taboo or too uncomfortable to be really mainstream.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #170 on: August 30, 2016, 04:26:49 am »

Well that might be one of the reason why you're a miserable person with no friends.

Because I don't believe doctors are actually wizards?

Or because I believe that Sex isn't just appearance?

Or because I have an opinion that isn't your opinion?

(Psst: It is the third one)
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #171 on: August 30, 2016, 04:26:56 am »

It is kind of a big technicality... and on the other hand one that completely doesn't matter and it doesn't affect anything because a sex change isn't even remotely required to change ones gender.

Why is it so important that I believe that someone who goes through a sex change actually alters their sex?

I could even go as far as to say to lie and say that it does... does more harm as it creates a unrealistic fantasy as to what actually occurs. (and as people find out... Sex changes quite often do not fix gender dysphoria. But lets pretend it always does!)

It's a matter of phrasing. By focusing on the idea that one's sex isn't changed, you also undermine the gender transition, because the two by no means are conceptually separated, given that gender primarily arises from sex (after all, they're even named the same, so if you say that sex changes don't really make you female, well, you might see how you could get taken the wrong way...).

As for the documented unsuccessful uses of sex changes to address dysphoria, that's also an interesting thing, much the same as SSRIs might not really fix depression (having the notable potential side effect of more depression), and when they do, we don't necessarily know that it's actually the SSRI mechanism that fixed it to begin with. It's something that more research should definitely be done on, to either refine the process or find the conceptual flaws that prevent it from working - pushing a technicality, however, is neither of these things. It's deconstructive, the point is.

Well that might be one of the reason why you're a miserable person with no friends.

Now now, the idea is to be less horrible to your fellow man and woman.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 04:32:11 am by Harry Baldman »
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hops

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #172 on: August 30, 2016, 04:32:03 am »

And NO I am not going up to people and going "Ohh so your still a man", that isn't the situation... I'd be a total jerk.
So I didn't see this edit, and I was kind of assuming you went up to people and nitpick people's flaws the same way you do with everything else.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #173 on: August 30, 2016, 04:34:09 am »

Quote
It's a matter of phrasing. By focusing on the idea that one's sex isn't changed, you also undermine the gender transition, because the two by no means are conceptually separated, given that gender primarily arises from sex.

I have no qualms over the importance of sex change surgery. There is a good reason why they are covered and why people need them.

It is entirely that I have no idea why the entire issue boils down to that one fact.

So I didn't see this edit, and I was kind of assuming you went up to people and nitpick people's flaws the same way you do with everything else.

Wow, your being a total jerk to me... and attempting so in a very personal way... Trying to effect my self-esteem in ways that typically cause people to falter.

In a topic you find personal... after I voiced an opinion that contradicts one of your own.
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Phmcw

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #174 on: August 30, 2016, 04:35:00 am »

Neonivek, you're being insensitive to an issue that is documented as causing a lot of mental suffering, persisted across all ages even when you could be killed for it.

The best proof that there is a reality behind it is that peoples did try to change gender (mostly by dressing like the other gender) in Catholic Europe or in today's Islamic countries.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #175 on: August 30, 2016, 04:36:24 am »

Neonivek, you're being insensitive to an issue that is documented as causing a lot of mental suffering, persisted across all ages even when you could be killed for it.

Gender Dysphoria? Sex changes? Which issue?

Wait a minute...

Cinder personally attacks me... Phmcw calls me out but leaves it vague so that any part of what I said can be used as the topic.

This topic is being policed UGH!

---

Also "Victimizing" people is another form of objectification that depowers people who are going through these issues.

These aren't "people" anymore... They are "victims"

Why don't you go talk to some people who actually went through a sex change, or vocal training, or hormone therapy.

Anyhow I am leaving the thread for a bit... I don't feel like being insulted for not being someone else's mouth piece.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 04:42:51 am by Neonivek »
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hops

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #176 on: August 30, 2016, 04:50:26 am »

Okay, sorry, I admit I got my judgment clouded by emotions.
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Harry Baldman

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #177 on: August 30, 2016, 04:55:02 am »

I have no qualms over the importance of sex change surgery. There is a good reason why they are covered and why people need them.

It is entirely that I have no idea why the entire issue boils down to that one fact.

Language and phrasing, as I said. And it really doesn't boil down to that one fact, it's just that by pushing down on that one point, the whole web is disturbed. By essentially saying "sex change doesn't really change your sex", you have to remember that people don't share your terms. They may think sex and gender are equivalent. Even if you define your terms beforehand. Especially if you define your terms beforehand. And particularly especially if you define yourself as the harsh realist who sees all the real truths that these very sensitive people do not. Essentially you're projecting the image of the soft anti-trans advocate, even if you're really not one at all.

For instance, consider Cinder getting bent out of shape by your remarks before you clarified in an edit what you really meant there - it's very easy to read malice and nitpicking of the sort typically found in harsh realists who see all the real truths on the internet that are enlightened in their euphoria of not pandering to the SJW agenda. These arguments are so wildly recycled and repeated that by even resembling one you essentially invoke a volume of shit-tier discussion and attacks on both sides. Implication is a powerful thing.

Also "Victimizing" people is another form of objectification that depowers people who are going through these issues.

These aren't "people" anymore... They are "victims"

Why don't you go talk to some people who actually went through a sex change, or vocal training, or hormone therapy.

I'm not really sure where calling people victims comes into this, aside from perhaps talking about dysphoria as a clinical issue for which transitioning is a potential treatment much like depression is a clinical issue for which electroconvulsive therapy is a potential (surprisingly more humane than you'd think) treatment. Lacking proper contact with trans people (although I do think a very distant acquaintance of mine transitioned a while ago) aside from following certain stories on the internet, it's really the best I can do.

Anyhow I am leaving the thread for a bit... I don't feel like being insulted for not being someone else's mouth piece.

Apologies if I've been inadvertently insulting, I really didn't mean to.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 04:59:47 am by Harry Baldman »
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hops

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #178 on: August 30, 2016, 05:01:50 am »

Yeah I think we're kind of letting emotions rule our judgments here and kind of misunderstanding. We're kind of going by different agenda here.

So, um, change of topic?

I personally feel that any sexuality except bisexuality is a bit artificial. You don't have to be exclusively heterosexual to be reproducing. Like, I enjoy males but I don't see whybI would wilt and die if I expressed affections to a female.

I'm just saying this because I just feel heterosexual people tend to be very paranoid about appearing gay.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - Let's keep this train on its rails
« Reply #179 on: August 30, 2016, 05:02:15 am »

Huh? You were fine Harry... and Cinder apologized for getting personal.

This whole situation... de-escalated rather... oddly

Quote
I'm not really sure where calling people victims comes into this

Wasn't from anything you said, don't worry about it.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 05:04:55 am by Neonivek »
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