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Author Topic: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway  (Read 140005 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1200 on: February 09, 2017, 05:51:08 pm »

For some careers they have sort of been finding out why women are less interested... and use that knowledge to try to entice women in different ways.

For example trying to get people into programming a sort of "Look at what amazing stuff you can do!" will attract males and repulse females. Women find "for its own sake neato" less appealing then men as a whole.

But honestly don't rag on people for complaining about the "Not perfect 50/50!!! AHHH!" too too much. We all want equality and no one REALLY knows how to obtain it... So often it is all about assumptions upon assumptions. Plus it isn't like even in jobs where men OR women are a rarity that there aren't genuine issues with there being hostility towards one gender or another making that number smaller EVEN IF it would never ever be actual 50/50.

I mean yes... There will never be 50% female miners unless some sort of fundamental societal change happens bordering on alchemy. But from some accounts I heard, male miners are less than helpful towards female miners.

---

You get the same thing in videogames.

Where they treat the 50/50 split to mean that there is a 50/50 core gamer audience, in spite that fact being ridiculous ("All Bike riders are car owners because they are both vehicle owners"). Thus there is a lot of occlusion and fabrication when it comes to how it is treated.

Yet it isn't like there aren't things that couldn't be improved. It just is not the things they are pushing.

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FINALLY just because of a higher representation doesn't necessarily mean things are biased in their favor. While a high number of Chinese people get far in the maths, this is INSPITE limitations being put on them, rather than there being a lack of barrier. If people want it, they will go for it.

---

Basically just take it like it is observed
1) There is a gender discrepancy in X
2) There is clear sexism or signs of sexism in X
Therefor, could sexism be the cause of the gender discrepancy in X?
and if so, could gender discrepancy itself be a result of sexism?
Thus if gender discrepancy is caused by sexism... Then gender discrepancy is a signifier of sexism.

Doesn't seem so insane does it? :P
« Last Edit: February 09, 2017, 07:58:12 pm by Neonivek »
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Gentlefish

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1201 on: February 09, 2017, 09:56:59 pm »

Honestly, I think I like that there's a scholarship for men in a field where there aren't men. I am okay with that.

Scholarships to incentivise and help people who would be a statistical minority in that major is a great idea. Even if it is dudes. It says that it's okay for them to take the degree. In most STEM fields, this is mostly applying to women and racial minorities, but I think it's fine to have scholarships for male veterinarians who need financial support.

and I don't think women necessarily want a 50/50 rep in games. They just want females in games to be handled as people rather than prizes. IE, FemShep, who is a zillion times better than Shepherd himself. Or, say, the supporting females (Except Miranda. Fuck you, Miranda), in the Bioware games. They want to feel like they have some agency in their playing. It's fine to have a male lead, it's just that there are no female leads like, basically ever.

Which is partially why I'm excited for Horizon: Zero Dawn. It's a female character written like a badass that's still identifiably female, and not sexualized like laura croft, or Samus Aran in her last few games.

misko27

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1202 on: February 09, 2017, 11:53:21 pm »

Well here's an on topic news story of diversity rules cutting both ways. Scholarships for rural remote males to get into veterinary courses at the uni in order to promote diversity in the 80% female field. This has rustled a lot of jimmies. As someone from regional/remote Australia, suggesting that these blokes aren't disadvantaged pisses me off something fierce. It's only a preference, though it makes me wonder, what's the point of trying to balance fields where one gender is just flat out less interested? Doesn't that just cut off a good number of talented and ambitious folk in order to balance the scales to a 50/50?
Like, I mean, if you run with the assumption that both genders are equally capable, which I think is the popular opinion of people advocating gender quotas(and myself), wouldn't you end up with something like this?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Though I have heard a big part of it is getting to a fairly decent threshold of like, 30-40% representation, so that you don't feel as though you are penetrating a gendered culture. That I can certainly understand, especially for politics, or jobs with an equal draw.
I feel like 30%-40% is an important ratio, actually. My highschool and college were both heavily slanted gender-wise in one direction (opposite directions though, interestingly), but because they were around that range it didn't feel like "oh this is a place for mostly men/women". I wonder if there is any research on when the ratio between men and women creates a feeling of there being more men than women or visa versa. Obviously no one can tell if it's between 45%-55%, and it's obvious if it's 10%/90%, but what about 20/80? 25/75? 35/65? It's an interesting question, actually. Hmm... Now that's interesting.
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1203 on: February 10, 2017, 01:09:47 am »

Quote
not sexualized like laura croft,

Goodness... I am just going to let this thread off because I could have a field day.

Because Laura Croft is incredibly sexualized... In the reboot.

In the classic series, outside one game, she just had big boobs and that was kind of it (and some games toned it down, and one ramped it up). Though as always critics of videogames are huge fans of body shaming! and instead of focusing on sexualized characters they focus on sexual characteristics. So I can only imagine women with naturally large breasts feel only scorn from those criticisms.

Which I did hear one critic address that and say that videogame women have no choice in what they look like and how they dress and that is very true. Except the criticism is being misdirected. You cannot go "UGH! Look at that Bikini, she looks totally overly sexualized in that bikini... Uhhh... But it totally looks good on you Samantha". You COULD have argued that the context and framing is different, but instead it is that there is a problem with it being a Bikini.

Which is odd because Quiet (Or Silence) From the Phantom Pain basically handed them good fruitful criticisms on a silver platter. Her costume is not only inherently ridiculous, terrible for what she does, against her personality, but she also sometimes acts like some sort of weird cat-human hybrid.

Dang it I said I wouldn't go there... Suffice it to say that big problem with critics is they often act anti-sex with one or two examples that are "Well-done". I know they aren't (Ok some... maybe half are), but language is important.

To put it into perspective imagine if a show was criticized for having a Stay at home mother, in fact imagine if almost every single show on TV had a stay at home mother even though only 20% of adult women are such. Now there is somewhat of a problem here clearly so I don't have to highlight exactly what is wrong here. Yet the critics instead focus on how stay at home mothers themselves are terrible.

---

Sigh I said I would drop it didn't I?... ugh sorry about that... *puts up flame protection*

Honestly, I think I like that there's a scholarship for men in a field where there aren't men. I am okay with that.

Yeah definitely.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 01:29:19 am by Neonivek »
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scriver

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1204 on: February 10, 2017, 10:14:20 am »

Well here's an on topic news story of diversity rules cutting both ways. Scholarships for rural remote males to get into veterinary courses at the uni in order to promote diversity in the 80% female field. This has rustled a lot of jimmies. As someone from regional/remote Australia, suggesting that these blokes aren't disadvantaged pisses me off something fierce. It's only a preference, though it makes me wonder, what's the point of trying to balance fields where one gender is just flat out less interested? Doesn't that just cut off a good number of talented and ambitious folk in order to balance the scales to a 50/50?
Like, I mean, if you run with the assumption that both genders are equally capable, which I think is the popular opinion of people advocating gender quotas(and myself), wouldn't you end up with something like this?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Though I have heard a big part of it is getting to a fairly decent threshold of like, 30-40% representation, so that you don't feel as though you are penetrating a gendered culture. That I can certainly understand, especially for politics, or jobs with an equal draw.

That is why, ideally, quotation should only happen when the applicants are on equal level of qualification. For a lot of fields/work this ideal situation is pretty impossible (such as manager positions not having a strict set of qualifications that is better), but for education it is a bit more straight forward since they already have a formal listing system in the shape of your grades. So how I'd prefer it in the vetucation context is women not having to step aside for men with lower grades/qualification than themselves, but men being promoted over women with equal grades up to a 50% point.
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Gentlefish

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1205 on: February 10, 2017, 01:54:03 pm »

Quote
not sexualized like laura croft,
-snoop-

Not in the context of the game she wasn't in the originals (Hoo boy that reboot), but basically immediately sexualized in the culture because they left in those extra-large funbags. And to be fair, that is society and not the publisher doing that; I'm pretty sure Samus Aran was the same way, but I wasn't really around for that to comment on it. All I know is what happened to her in the Prime series. Poor thing.

And I was talking, in this case, about protagonists. MGS is a whole other can o' worms with objectification in video games. Almost quite literally sometimes, heh.

Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1206 on: February 10, 2017, 07:53:13 pm »

I'm sorry how was Croft sexualized in the 2013 reboot?
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Reelya

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1207 on: February 11, 2017, 12:11:13 am »

To be honest, with the veterinarian thing, there's a big need for farm vets. Ya think those 80% of girls who go into vet science want to shove their arm up either of a cow's "you know wheres"? Also guys in remote farming areas might not have many opportunities that let them stay in the rural setting. Not being sexist, but a lot of farm work does still involve heavy lifting. You can't automate all of that, so there is a need to keep men in rural developing areas, too. So while in theory there's no problem if 80% of your veterinarians are city-born girls, but in reality, that is in fact a huge problem for supply where it's needed. Puppy and kitten vets are not the same as horse and cow vets. And being a farm vet requires you to be pretty strong, too. In the same way male nurses are valued for their strength to life heavy patients, male farm vets can generally more easily move a horse or cow who is injured or sick. Basically high body strength of the farm vet will mean the animal is safer, and less risk of injury to a human.

Also, if you look at the college where this is applied, 80% of vet science people are women, and the anti-scholarship people say "but what about all the other fields where women are a minority", yet the total undegraduate intake of University of Sydney as a whole is 55% female, and for post-graduates the bias is bigger, 58% female. And they do in fact have scholarships that are already female-only. So they have a female majority which gets more pronounced as you go through that college, and they have programs designed to boost that lead. Yet a single scholarship which is for men in an overwhelmingly-female-dominated area is patriarchy? I don't buy it.

One of the girls in vet science did point out that male vet science people earn more after graduation. But there's a straightforward reason for that. If only a small percentage of one gender goes into the field, then they're drawing from a more selective pool in the first place. e.g. a man who had grades which barely scraped through is less likely than a woman to pick "vet science" as his number one choice of field. Basically being a vet is not as many men's fallback career idea compared to women, so the ones that do are the highly motivated ones. It's the same with engineering. Only a select few women choose to become engineers, but the ones that do are really, really good at maths and wanted to do that thing, specifically. So female engineering graduates out-earn the average male graduate by quite a bit. Purely because less women wanted to do it.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 12:39:58 am by Reelya »
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George_Chickens

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1208 on: February 11, 2017, 12:37:42 am »

You edit your posts a ton. You can now post again, guilt free :P
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Reelya

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1209 on: February 11, 2017, 12:41:10 am »

Well if it's within 20 minutes of the original post I'd rather edit it than post multiple bits, that would be too much like talking to myself.

Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1210 on: February 11, 2017, 12:43:14 am »

I'm sorry how was Croft sexualized in the 2013 reboot?

Well there was the whole manufactured controversy.

Last I remember pre-2013 reboot Lara never tried to shore up sales by pulling that.
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Rolan7

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1211 on: February 11, 2017, 12:55:23 am »

2013 Tomb Raider was pretty creepy in how graphically brutal it was...  Less than Dead Space, though.  I don't think it was particularly sexual.  Also she started out timid and meek, but so would I (and so did that male side character, who gets killed off).

I mean, her helpless pretty friend did spend the game tied up in "ceremonial" attire.  Also I think a few of the early QTE's implied attempted rape, though obviously they ended in brutal death instead.

But no, Lara really wasn't sexualized at all that I can remember.  It was pretty great about that.
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Starver

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1212 on: February 11, 2017, 07:40:28 am »

I really haven't kept up with Lara1, and am not even sure I ever saw the second film in the franchise. But I was in at the beginning with the original (coverdisk demo, and then purchased) and it was somewhat revolutionary in graphics, I thought.  "Alone In The Dark" was a prior vectored-avatar attempt (but was a bit clunky, or maybe the machines of the time were), the Doom/Wolfenstein precursors did 3d environments (better? ...it was obviously TR was based upon a strict plan-grid, imaginatively but restrictively 'coloured' only by vertical deformations and sheerings of squares and imaginative 'special' decorations), the puzzle element was often just a super-Sokoban (more forgiving, with pull as well as push, but mingled with 'live enemies' often enough to make it an FPS too).

The use of a female protagonist was new. To me. I was never a beat-em-up player, where they (if not abounded) had at least a plurality of choosable female player-protagonists, it seemed, in any decent implementation, and Miss Pacman barely counts. For my own part, playing as Elizabeth I (i.e. the English) in Civilization was the main example, where it was obvious.

And I recall complaints (that, in the depth of difficult gameplay, I would not have considered a factor in my concentration) that the "running into a wall" Ooomph! of Lara was much like the apparently distractingly 'orgasmic' Wimbledon Grunts of the Ladies' singles matches. But I never disconnected enough from the gameplay to succumb myself to the alleged deliberate repetition for personal gratification, because I was always trying to play the game. (I'm fairly sure.)

Lara being female was, to me, more a sign that this was not a gung-ho rush-game.  Capable of attacking (or speeding, helter-skelter, upon speedboat or snowmobile or even on foot through a 'collapsing' cave) when necessary, that still wasn't the main focus of the game all the time.  Maybe an Indianna Jones-like male character could have embodied this philosophy, too, but we were plainly discouraged from barging (possible) or wrestling (not part of the movement/interaction possibilities, outside of cut-scenes) or punching (I think) in ways that the Doom Marine did not, even where similarly code-limited.

From the cut-scenes, I never really thought that there was any weakness in her character, just 'different strengths'. Her first main adversary (Pierre?) was smart, but not Lara-smart, and used ruthlesness to cover the deficiencies.  The wildlife enemies cared not one jot that this walking foodsource was female (whatever their normal prey, in the absence of intruders!), and the mystical stuff had no care (the thing that mirrored Lara across that platform just made sure that it was exactly like Lara, down to making tit-for-tat projectile shots as they circled each other in a psychically-synchronised dance of death, until you discovered the means to make them take a fall and thus you to triumph). The environment was generally unforgiving (though I suspect Lara may have somehow had a better lung capacity, despite her pinched rib-cage, by reasons of plot).


And, at least until me and the franchise departed company, for the reasons I already stated, I never really noticed any exploitation of the character (maybe some backplot relationship hints, but mostly to show how she was now her own woman) that weren't actually fem-positive things that I expect the girl videogamers would have found endearing.

Of course, I was a boy (or, rather, a man, whether that's better or worse), so I can't be sure I was entirely unlinked from my own biases and misconceptions, and subconciously prefered the sound of Lara falling heavily off a ledge or being struck by a projectile, to that of Doomguy in similar circumstances.


And, while writing this, I also recalled that the Carmageddon driver could be set to a woman's head, in the Doomguy-like 'what are you like' portion of the decorative console surround.  I probably played as her a few times. Took effort to change, and didn't change gameplay (car colour, maybe, from red to yellow?), and didn't consider it necessary. (But it seems that was afger Lara, anyway, and she was 14?)


And I've no idea what happened in 2013. Do I want to know, above the small hints already given?


1 Having been there at the begining but as a non-consoler been deprived of games that never (or only after the hype) came to PC, then stopped being a bleeding-edge gamer.   I think GTA: San Amdreas marked the point where I started to wait, and my other computing interests (leisure and professional) drowned out the need...
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Neonivek

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1213 on: February 11, 2017, 12:15:53 pm »

The non-controversial long and short is... They turned Lara into the girl in the hunger games. Albeit by first making her as weak and helpless as possible, which is the typical modern "Female character" writing ("People won't buy that this female character is competent. So lets have her become competent by making her start incompetent")

The Controversial long and short is... They advertised the game by making it seem like a jaunt through sexualized violence town in order to manufacture controversy to advertise the game.

Though... The game was a commercial failure anyhow so take that as you well (doesn't help that it KIND of played... like a Uncharted Lite game... where many of the additions were to its detriment. Hilariously when Uncharted copied them, they did it better... That and it doesn't matter how many times you go "Look! Lara is not sexist anymore!" before people will ask you for the gameplay....... THAT and the game was very expensive to make so it sold well for a much cheaper game)

---

Ehh my major issue with new Lara has more to do with two major points
-1) She is another jumper on of the "Female protagonist" bandwagon where in order to make a female lead plausible they have to make her as helpless and out of control of her emotions as possible. Coming off of Other M doesn't help. This when previous videogames had no issue with the concept of female = competent.
-2) This constant referral that the old Lara was somehow super duper sexist and the new one is as female positive as humanly possible *barf*.

The next game will probably not have her cry in a corner for minutes on end this time given this is supposed to be a sort of prequel reboot "before she was amazing". This is ignoring... THE OTHER issues.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2017, 12:22:55 pm by Neonivek »
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Starver

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Re: Gender/sexuality etc. - What Even Is A Gender Anyway
« Reply #1214 on: February 11, 2017, 02:50:16 pm »

I've never seen (or read) Hunger Games (+sequels), but I get the idea.  (I saw Divergent, but no sequels, and can't even remember what I felt about Ms Female Protagonist in that. Can't be as bad as the Sparkly Vampires In Washington State Thingy (again, no sequels seen, nothing read), I'm thinking, but I stand to be corrected.)

Hmm, what was the last film I saw with memorable female lead?  Well, The Force Awakens, I suddenly realise, even as I'm just about to say it was as far back as Gravity.  Maybe the ultimate commendation, that I didn't think of it as being female-led (at least in part), it was just a strong chatacter, or maybe that's actually a bad thing if I think of it the other (correct?) way.  But not gratuitous, at least1.  Or "token team-member" like the Avengers franchise has with Black Widow and whoever else might be there for some or all of a particular filmic episode (Hill, Maximoff, Sharon Carter, honorary mention to Peggy Carter), but that's somewhat influenced by historic source material, ditto the X-Men, though I think. (Though Storm and Jean could have been done worse, Rogue gets introed as per Jubilee in the animation...  And Mystique's a troublesome one to classify, for several reasons.)

But is that really the best thing to talk about, here. Film (and other fictional) characters of spectral-range gender identities and/or sexualities would seem to be more on-topic, but it seems I've laid down some thoughts here, almost unbidden, that deal only with the 'classic' polarisation of the sexes.


1 Which leads me onto saying that I have no opinion on the new Ghostbusters, I never actually saw it, due to time.  I was shown the trailer by someone who saw it as proof of "SJWs taking over" (not my words...), but I was too busy laughing at the obvious homages to the original. In a good way! I think he was disappointed that I seemed not to entirely share his POV.
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