Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Spectre9000]

I was looking at some various things on the wiki, and looking into crossbows, and something I've been thinking of doing is training my military dwarves as marksmen and hammerdwarves and giving them copper crossbows with silver bolts and a quiver. Then outfitting them with shields, and metal armor. How effective would this be, and should I give them silver warhammers as well? The idea would be that the crossbow would be a ranged piercing weapon a bashing melee weapon.

I also know that initially equipping your dwarves with crossbows is easier as the ambusher skill can give your dwarf a crossbow and leather armor. Also, you can make them hunters and train their marksdwarfship that way.


Another idea I've had is making a mining army, focusing on the mining skill and picks as primary weapons. I'm not sure how effective a pick is though. It would be easy enough to train mining, but not sure how effective it is. This would be for the latest starter pack version (v43).

I'd like a hardened army that could take on even HFS. Also, as a side note, how effective are danger rooms in the latest version?

[Arcvasti]

1) Copper crossbows with some Hammerdwarf training are decent[If not stellar] melee weapons.

2) I don't think you can wield a shield and a crossbow at the same time.

3) Giving dwarves a melee back-up weapon doesn't work, they prioritize their melee weapon and charge into the fray.

4) You definitely get plenty of free crossbows, but since you can make them from wood as well, that's not THAT helpful.

5) I don't like the Hunting labour, but you can achieve similar[And more controllable] results by just telling your squad to kill a wild animal.

6) Picks are decent, but not stellar, weapons. They're piercing weapons, but don't penetrate nearly as deep as spears do. Military training doesn't take long enough and sieges come late enough that an advantage of about a year's training for picks isn't substantial enough to make up for being kinda meh weapons.

7) Danger rooms are dead. Toady has killed them. I don't think they give xp anymore and the new changes to blunt weapons and armour mean that, even if they did, they'd still damage joints and armour. Normal training should get dwarves usable in about a year[Much less if they start with novice skill in their weapon] and legendary in 3-4 more years.

[Spectre9000]

According to the wiki, unless its wrong, dwarves can wield shields with crossbows, and if they wield bucklers they can hold more bolts in that hand.

I'm confused by you saying they won't use a melee weapon because they prioritize their melee weapon. Could you please elaborate?

Also, what would you say is your preferred training method for hammerdwarves and marksdwarves? You seem to get far better results in your training than I do.

[Arcvasti]

I'm confused by you saying they won't use a melee weapon because they prioritize their melee weapon. Could you please elaborate?

They won't use a ranged weapon because they prioritize melee weapons.

Also, what would you say is your preferred training method for hammerdwarves and marksdwarves? You seem to get far better results in your training than I do.

For hammerdwarves I usually set up two-dwarf squads and have them train full-time. After they reach a certain threshold[I THINK its Novice or better weapon skill], they start sparring like crazy and advance skills quite quickly. Sometimes I then split up the two-dwarf squad and pair each of them up with a raw recruit to speed getting them to the sparring threshold.

For marksdwarves... I haven't used them in forever, but last time I did, I had them shoot up whatever animals were on the map with bone bolts and then make more bone bolts out of their kills. I remember them taking a lot longer to train up then melee dwarves, I don't think I've EVER gotten a legendary one.

[Fleeting Frames]

It's not just a shorter spear. Picks have a major advantage over other EDGE weapons in that they have no slapping attacks ("Urist, watch me kill it with the flat of my blade."), and have 60%-100% greater velocity than other native edged weapons. But otherwise, yeah their penetration is about same as short's sword best attack.

Also, Melting Sky claims they're the best native-made all-around weapons in DF according to his arena tests, at least in 34.11. You can run tests in 43.05 yourself - I think there was a thread on this in DF General discussion.

Thus overall, they're my current weapon of choice for meleers when reclaiming ruins from FBs/lairs from titans with 7 dwarves. (Backup of archers because crossbow, quiver, bolts are cheaper than armor outfit.)

Also, it's really simple to train a squad of legendary miners, and I'm impatient none of my forts have lasted 4 years so far, I get bored and do something else.

That said, there's no single best weapon you can smith.
- Spears are generally good at reaching the hearts of big many-limbed beasts, such as hydras. However, they get stuck often.
- Edged weapons in general can cut off parts - provided there's strength and width. Furthermore, equal or better armor hilariously neuters them, to the point where 1 dwarf with steel armor and hammer can kill 10 with steel armor and axes - and probably without taking a scratch.
- Blunt weapons (and attacks, such as from the hooves/pushes of big beasts) go through armor barely slowing, can make people pass out from broken bones quickly, and can pulp undead to make them no longer reanimatable. However, they're less effective the larger target is and much slower in killing off a target (by either bleeding out or destroying head/upper body/lower body) for good, making the wielder unable to strike back at flanks at the time.
- Archery is generally vastly weaker than meleeing with appropriate weapon - if still capable of crippling and deadly versus unarmed, but is the quickest way to defend airspace(some 20*20*20=8000 tiles), can quickly hit targets who can run faster than dwarves and can help deal with not durable but unapproachable deadly target, such as Fiend of Flame.

[Arcvasti]

It's not just a shorter spear. Picks have a major advantage over other EDGE weapons in that they have no slapping attacks ("Urist, watch me kill it with the flat of my blade."), and have 60%-100% greater velocity than other native edged weapons. But otherwise, yeah their penetration is about same as short's sword best attack.

No slapping attacks is NOT a major advantage. An advantage, sure, but a very very minor one. Arena testing revealed a total of FOUR blunt attacks with a shortsword in eight pages of combat. Any advantage picks have is probably in the much higher velocity and not that.

Also, Melting Sky claims they're the best native-made all-around weapons in DF according to his arena tests, at least in 34.11. You can run tests in 43.05 yourself - I think there was a thread on this in DF General discussion.

Huh, when I tried, I couldn't increase Miner skill in Arena mode.

1 dwarf with steel armor and hammer can kill 10 with steel armor and axes

Untrue. In my arena tests, the sworddwarves usually end up strangling the hammerdwarf to death after he tires out trying to kill one of them.

[Daris]

If you have enough dwarves, it's best in my experience to have squads that specialize in different weapons.  Don't mix and match your squads; you want to be able to select the weapons you deploy exactly.

My first melee squad is always equipped with picks, and my second squad with warhammers.  This is enough for most sieges and FBs/titans.  If you deal with undead you may want to skip the picks and stick with blunt weaponry entirely.  I try to get enough non-zero-quality whips to make my third squad lashers.  I usually stop there because that's 30 dwarves, but when I do keep going my next two squads have battle axes and spears.  Lately I've been largely skipping the marksdwarves.  They just aren't useful enough for me to bother with the hassle of getting them trained.

[StarWars1981]

I just put all my melee dwarves into squads and have them train 3 months, off three. Now I've got it four on, two off, four on, two off. They train rapidly up to Accomplished, Proficient, and even Expert levels. I've only had them training a few years, probably 3, starting with only those with Competent skills in their weapons, or at least in a lot of the extra combat skills. I've now started a separate macedwarf squad, full of 5 raw recruits and two experienced macedwarves. The other two squads contain a hammerdwarf each, three spears or so, and four swords and however many other axes there are. It's working well, in fact. And they already demolished 10 goblins, with 15 militia of course, but it was a tight staircase and only a few really scored serious blows in there. No injuries on my side, goblin pieces all over.
For Marksdwarves, put them in a squad, set them to train. I haven't bothered with a shooting range even. Just let them train melee skills that way, and only take initially-skilled Marksdwarves. Otherwise you really won't get much use out of them. The higher skill they are, the more accurate, but you'll still going to use TONS of bolts. But it'll train weaponsmiths very, very well.
I've found marksdwarves useful for things like minotaurs; I got one before the militia was properly equipped, so I used the 4-dwarf Marks squad to attack him. One gave up early, a second went to sleep at the "Position" order I was using to get them to collect bolts, and a THIRD freakin went to sleep ON THE WAY TO THE MINOTAUR.
Fourth Marksdwarf kills Minotaur in about 10 shots. Bleeds him out. Very nice shot, too, very few misses at a decent range.

[lcy03406]

The downside of edge weapons, is that they will cut off every limb and decapitate the foe, which results in 5 times more dumping labor. But if you want your corridor super clean, it may be an advantage over blunt weapons, because you don't need to dump the knocked teeth.

[Iduno]

For marksdwarves... I haven't used them in forever, but last time I did, I had them shoot up whatever animals were on the map with bone bolts and then make more bone bolts out of their kills. I remember them taking a lot longer to train up then melee dwarves, I don't think I've EVER gotten a legendary one.

That worked well for me. Today I got 2 hunters up to legendary in crossbows in about a year. The downside is they seem to refuse to use military crossbows for hunting (my woodcutters do the same with axes), even if they are the dwarf assigned to that crossbow. They'll hunt with it fine, may or may not use it if I make them a soldier to finish off a creature, then refuse to hunt with it again until they are removed from the military. It's fiddly, but not usually a big deal. It's a bigger deal when they decide the civilian crossbow or axe is beneath them, drop it, and run naked at an armed opponent.

Uh... long story short, hunting is good training for the military because they automatically attack whatever shows up. Just leave them as either hunters or soldiers. And don't expect a woodcutter to defend themselves.

[Melting Sky]

Picks are the all around best edged weapon a dwarf can wield. Make them out of steel if you have it and they will cut down just about anything. Just watch out for situations where you have undead reanimation effects active such as with necromancers or reanimating biomes. Edged weapons tend to become a liability in such situations.

[Centigrade]

Hello!

I cannot speak to anything that may have been changed in DF2014, but I got partway through what would have been some very extensive testing concerning exactly the question you are asking. I did not feel like putting in nearly the amount of crazy effort to present it attractively, as others like Urist DaVinci have done, but I came away from a limited, inconclusive run (i.e., <95% CI) fairly convinced that I had come upon the optimal kit for a well-trained military dwarf of average body size. Thus far, my experience in DF2014 has matched my expectations from my DF2012 endeavours enough that I have not been compelled to retest.

The specific may vary depending on how exactly you prefer to outfit your dwarves, but below are given the best values for damage reduction against hits that are received.

With proper layering concerns applied, you want: adamantine mail; steel rigid armour bits; copper crossbows; adamantine edged weapons or silver blunt weapons; adamantine shields; adamantine clothing items.

If you allow for artifacts, then you instead want: adamantine mail; steel rigid armour bits; platinum crossbows; adamantine edged weapons or platinum blunt weapons; adamantine shields; adamantine clothing items.

Knowing all of this, I also know that the benefits offered by the best possible kit are negligibly better than the benefits offered by a considerably more conservative kit which is: adamantine mail; steel rigid armour bits; adamantine edged weapons and copper crossbows, or silver blunt weapons; the lightest masterwork shield in your price range; silk clothing items.

Your shield material only matters for three concerns: bash damage, price/rarity, and weight, the former being negligible even when optimised and the latter having numerous effects on combat. Any shield will fully block any attack, including dragonfire, regardless of its material so there is no practical reason to invest in anything but the lightest, masterwork shield you can find. You want steel rigid bits because adamantine is not dense, which prevents it from stopping blunt damage and projectiles as well as denser metals; depending on what mods or moods you have, you might even prefer silver or platinum or slade for the rigid bits, though these would obviously slow down your dwarves due to weight. Steel is the happy medium. Adamantine really shines for clothing items, mail shirts, and especially edged weapons.

Speaking of weapons! Crossbows are terrible bludgeoning weapons, so the super-optimised option of silver or platinum will give only negligibly more throughput than copper, and the numbers really become muddied if you are comparing across skill levels and quality levels; simply, copper is close enough to perfect, especially if you just use the highest-quality ones you can. If you are going to give a dwarf a crossbow, then he should also be given a battle axe and vice versa; marksdwarves will actually use battle axes in melee, and axedwarves will actually use crossbows at range, when they have both assigned so long as the shield and weapons are in the right order: shield, then crossbow, then axe. It is arguably not worth giving a marksdwarf a blunt weapon, or a blunt weapon user a crossbow, since most of the time dwarves with silver warhammers will still keep using their copper crossbow in melee.

My military is usually a squad of axedwarves/marksdwarves and a squad of hammerdwarves/macedwarves, with the fortress guard a squad of exclusively marksdwarves with wooden bows and no melee weapon.

See these threads for more discussion on marksdwarves and their equipment:

1. Properly-equipped marksdwarves
2. Making Marksdwarves effective in melee
3. Foolproof guide to making equipment work

[StarWars1981]

I don't know about that. I like spears; they're effective against goblins. But then, wooden sticks and punches are effective against them.
Spears are definitely good at penetrating large targets and bringing them down due to organ damage. For maiming, you want either an axe (preferred, honestly) or a sword, which, with a strong enough militiaman behind it, will actually break bones when bashing with the flat of the sword. I saw one break a goblin's arm. It was rather impressive, actually.

However, against goblins and any other unarmored target, the hammers are reliably one-shot slaughter machines. There's usually no second hit, and if there is, there is no third shot. Then again, mine are Master level and up, and they're facing - you guessed it - goblins. And giant nuisance monkeys.

And crossbows are good so long as your target A. has bones, B. isn't made of metal, C. can feel pain, and D. is not too small/fast to shoot repeatedly.
Other than that, though, you're pretty much good for chucking all the bolts at them you want until they go unconscious. Then, however, you'll need to send in the melee dwarves to clean the trash; otherwise, you won't get kills for hundreds more bolts spent. A Minotaur showed up at my fort; 4 bolts in he was down, after suffering unusual massive bleeding injuries, but it took almost 10 more to finish him. I think it totalled at 10-12 bolts.

[Spectre9000]

Is silk better than leather for clothing for uniforms, Centigrade?

[Goatmaan]

I noticed a lot of candy listed, is there any news on the wear mechanic of candy?
That being a limited supply, and if you're using it you're ready for a serious fight,  wont you have to melt it?

  Goatmaan