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Author Topic: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc  (Read 271711 times)

Starver

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1185 on: January 19, 2018, 09:19:32 am »

The resurgence of the Cross-Channel Bridge...

Much apart from the Boris/Brexit component, maybe there's something to be discussed with regard to the engineering?  What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?
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Sheb

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1186 on: January 19, 2018, 09:40:24 am »

The resurgence of the Cross-Channel Bridge...

Much apart from the Boris/Brexit component, maybe there's something to be discussed with regard to the engineering?  What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?

Yay, we could add a pedestrian crossing for the migrants of Calais. /s
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1187 on: January 19, 2018, 10:24:48 am »

Yay, we could add a pedestrian crossing for the migrants of Calais. /s
Why are the Europeans so keen to get rid of them? They're good for your economy

The resurgence of the Cross-Channel Bridge...
Much apart from the Boris/Brexit component, maybe there's something to be discussed with regard to the engineering?  What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?
And interference with shipping

Starver

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1188 on: January 19, 2018, 10:44:28 am »

[
What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?
And interference with shipping
That was part of the point of my question. Do we make thirty-three kilometre-long spans (or 20 mile-long ones, give or take exact ground points at each end) with loads of navigational warnings around each pier, or a small number of Dartford-like suspended bridging spans with active navigational control pulling traffic to the relevent mid-span parts of the channels and the rest across much closer cantilevering bridging-causeway stands that basically has huge big "do not sail this way at all!" warnings.


(People can already walk through the Chunnel/its service tunnel, if they get by security. Comparatively safe compared to hundred-metres-plus high road deck (probably better designed as a sky-tunnel for at least some of the length!) when it comes to unauthorised traffic. But I had intended to say "politics aside", must have forgotten.)
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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1189 on: January 19, 2018, 11:51:11 am »

This thread is about automation and technology, not about meat with personality.

Speaking of, I just built a new computer to try out some home-built neural network stuff. I think I'll use the shoe database and train a neural network that tries to make shoes look more comfortable.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1190 on: January 19, 2018, 12:51:46 pm »

That was part of the point of my question. Do we make thirty-three kilometre-long spans (or 20 mile-long ones, give or take exact ground points at each end) with loads of navigational warnings around each pier, or a small number of Dartford-like suspended bridging spans with active navigational control pulling traffic to the relevent mid-span parts of the channels and the rest across much closer cantilevering bridging-causeway stands that basically has huge big "do not sail this way at all!" warnings.
(People can already walk through the Chunnel/its service tunnel, if they get by security. Comparatively safe compared to hundred-metres-plus high road deck (probably better designed as a sky-tunnel for at least some of the length!) when it comes to unauthorised traffic. But I had intended to say "politics aside", must have forgotten.)
I'd wait a while to see if anything comes of it before making plans to accommodate it; Boris has had a habit of proposing Dorfy megaprojects that went nowhere because they didn't make much sense for their expected cost. It's simply a lot easier to conduct trade through shipping tbh, than building a megaproject for that much money - methinks Boris just wants to go down in history as having made the Boris bridge, just like his Boris buses or Boris bikes. Building a giant bridge on top of one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world too... It's disasters waiting to happen. The Times says the bridge would cost about £120B, which for comparison, is a lot more than the £48B we spend on the entire country's railway network. Factor in that it's already easier to get to France from England than it is to get to parts of England from England, I'd say it's a political ploy meant to distract people, and not an immediate government priority. Then again, it is Boris, who is not easy to predict.

As far as engineering goes, there's not much to discuss since the plans are still theoretical. But more work has been done on possible Ireland-UK bridges/tunnels, which could perhaps indicate how a UK-France bridge could work. The Ireland-UK bridge would also serve a function in giving Ireland a land-route to the European continent, so there'd be more reason to build it. Politically, there'd be issues with either bridges, as both would be major risks for Continental Islamic or Irish Republican terrorism & logistics, but that's just how things have been for a while, and sorta goes with any increase in traffic

China did build a bridge of such a size as would be comparable to a cross-channel bridge between Hong Kong and Macau. The bridge's construction has pretty much wiped out Hong Kong's white dolphins. Ecologically... I dunno, it'd be difficult. But technically it could be done, assuming no political or ecological obstacles.

Funnily enough, when I started this post, and when I submitted it - in that brief time, the plans died. That was short. But yeah the biggest problem is going to be just how many ships and in particular, how many large ships will be able to pass through it. You've got all the ships supplying the UK (which carry 95% of its goods), then you've also got half of the EU's goods coming in by sea and the majority of that comes through the Netherlands - thus any restriction to the channel would fuck everyone up more than the benefits the bridge would provide.

Thus the three vital qualities to making such a bridge reality would be:
*Cheap
*Limits no maritime passage
*Robust against weather (protecting drivers above), robust against the worst collision (they can be bad).

It's a pretty engineering idea, but it's not going to happen soon. What I think is going to be the next spicy meatball is arctic maritime routes opening up, with the first commercial ship to have sailed it without icebreakers happening recently, aided by global warming & melting ice

Starver

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1191 on: January 19, 2018, 12:55:34 pm »

Boris has had a habit of proposing Dorfy megaprojects that went nowhere because they didn't make much sense for their expected cost.
As included in the article I linked. And as excluded by the wording I gave in my OP. Thanks for playing, though.
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smjjames

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1192 on: January 19, 2018, 01:49:47 pm »


Funnily enough, when I started this post, and when I submitted it - in that brief time, the plans died.

You messed up that part as: url=http://As ideas go, it has not been a resounding success. Architects, hauliers, the maritime industry, and an MP have so far expressed their scepticism about Boris Johnson’s ambition to build a 22-mile (35km) bridge across the Channel - and even the prime minister has signalled it won’t happen.]Funnily enough, when I started this post, and when I submitted it - in that brief time, the plans died./url (removed brackets so it wouldn't activate the BBcode)

Just letting you know on it.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1193 on: January 19, 2018, 02:36:06 pm »

As included in the article I linked. And as excluded by the wording I gave in my OP. Thanks for playing, though.
What's the issue?

Starver

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1194 on: January 19, 2018, 02:53:57 pm »

As included in the article I linked. And as excluded by the wording I gave in my OP. Thanks for playing, though.
What's the issue?
That you think I'm talking about Boris, when I said I wasn't? That you brought up Boris's other ideas, as if they weren't mentioned already? I don't think you read the link, and then certainly seemed not to have read "maybe there's something to be discussed with regard to the engineering?  What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?"...

Never mind. It seemed like it would be a good tech/engineering discussion of what a Channel Bridge could look like (with current/latest levels of engineering prowess and ixeas), but clearly there's no milage in that.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1195 on: January 19, 2018, 05:40:55 pm »

That you think I'm talking about Boris, when I said I wasn't?
Where'd I say that?

That you brought up Boris's other ideas, as if they weren't mentioned already?
Brought up in brief comparisons to ideas which for example, were not included in your link, like Boris bikes - merely for the illustrative purpose that they point to an obvious attempt at legacy building

I don't think you read the link, and then certainly seemed not to have read "maybe there's something to be discussed with regard to the engineering?  What pattern/variety of spans, and what heights?"...

Never mind. It seemed like it would be a good tech/engineering discussion of what a Channel Bridge could look like (with current/latest levels of engineering prowess and ixeas), but clearly there's no milage in that.
You all right m8 cos you're being unnecessarily salty for no reason, I posted links to theoretical UK-Ireland bridges and the actual Chinese Hong Kong-Macau bridge to lend some ideas on how people have tried to plan similar things, or achieved similar things. You misjudge my sincerity :<
More on topic: some things are immediately apparent about what such a bridge would have to look like, all of which centers around its size, cost and the problem of maritime impediment.

The Hong Kong-Macau bridge is under 23km long, the Straits of Dover are at their narrowest 33km in length. This would make a Channel bridge, very fucking big. Not just in length - in order to ensure maritime passage for shipping, of which for example a QE Carrier is 45M above the waterline, a cargo ship usually between 30-40M above the waterline, but the largest cruise ships and luxury passenger liners can get to 70M above the waterline, and some of the world's largest ships pass through making width an important concern too. This would mean the bridge would have to hold itself 75-80M above the waterline at the spring tide and close-set pillars would be out of the question, even if cost or ecology was not an issue.

This is useful information because then it helps us to conceptualize what a theoretical bridge would look like. As before: Very big. It would have to be done in multiple spans suspended between multiple towers. It would have to be study enough to survive collision with some of the largest ships in the world, and it would need to be both resilient in the face of the worst Atlantic weather, and have weather guards for drivers actually atop the bridge. Using this handy thing we can roughly gauge that with a 1:6 optimal tower height to central span ratio, and with a 1km span per segment as per Bojo's proposal, each tower would optimally be under just under 170M high. Which if you factor in the depth of the straits at its deepest, the height of the tallest ships reasonably expected to pass through & the spring tide, should still allow the largest of ships through safely. Notably past proposals in the 80s had planned bridges rise just under 70m above waterline, and was mooted for impeding nautical traffic, with smaller ships back then. It'll also be a suspension bridge because that'd be the most cost effective for a bridge of this size. Of note, the pylons of such a bridge would be pretty fucking tall too, for example in the previous link bridges with spans of a kilometer have pylons with heights of 298m, with the lowest being 155m. This would be a big bridge, the biggest bridge

smjjames

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1196 on: January 19, 2018, 05:51:01 pm »

And then theres sea level rise to consider. Obviously it won't become a problem for a while, but eventually it will become an issue, especially if ships continue to get bigger and bigger.
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McTraveller

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1197 on: January 21, 2018, 02:00:23 pm »

You guys, you're forgetting that a ship is just essentially a piece of bridge that isn't connected to anything.  It would probably be easier (dunno about cheaper) to just build a huge fleet of ships with enough propulsion for station-keeping, line them all up, and connect them with flexible bridge material and let vehicles drive across them.

I'm sure there are far more absurd but plausible-sounding ideas.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1198 on: January 21, 2018, 04:27:26 pm »

You guys, you're forgetting that a ship is just essentially a piece of bridge that isn't connected to anything.  It would probably be easier (dunno about cheaper) to just build a huge fleet of ships with enough propulsion for station-keeping, line them all up, and connect them with flexible bridge material and let vehicles drive across them.

I'm sure there are far more absurd but plausible-sounding ideas.
Still run into the issue that you'd have to have ways to decouple ships to allow other ships to pass through, all with such organization and communication that there are no collisions or cars lost to the sea.
A more radical solution would be to put cars onto the ships and sail them across... Using the ships like some kind of vehicle of the sea.

Personally I think we're better off building a space elevator connecting UK & France tbqh

GiglameshDespair

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Re: Tech News. Automation, Engineering, Environment Etc
« Reply #1199 on: January 21, 2018, 04:37:57 pm »


A more radical solution would be to put cars onto the ships and sail them across... Using the ships like some kind of vehicle of the sea.

Madness!
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