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[Aphix]

Well, I'm just curious how everyone takes on not building to the cave river right away. I am doing a test build when I'm going in with two farmers and two miners, mostly for the purpose of building how I want it, and being able to stock pile foods and alcohol. I brought water from the river, allowing me a very early farm, could have done it sooner if it was the first thing I built, and even got some harvesting done before summer(Again, didn't get around to building the farms untill later on).

What is everyones take on farming from the outside river as opposed to the cave river? Any drawbacks either way? Positives? If your dwarves get taken by a mood well they request things from beyond the river or just in the section you are at now?

For the most part I want to try and building up some stockpiles and hopefully getting a military going before I start mining to deeply, and I'm curious as to peoples feelings on this?

[PhilD]

I find that my attempts at farming from the outside river tend to fail too often, most likely due to my not understanding the subtleties of floodgates (my last try, the channel was flooded without a floodgate, so I installed just one and managed to flood the room, but next year the part of the channel inside the cliff dried up, and I never managed to flood that room again).

On advantage of the underground river is, you get a flood for free when you find it, so you don't even need floodgates for your first farm - the naturally flooded area tends to be large enough for my farming power in the first year. So you have your whole winter to set up a real floodable room, and why not do it by the river then?

Also, can you flood from the outside when the river is still frozen? In cold areas, this might make a difference since the river is frozen early in spring, while the underground river is not.

[Mechanoid]

quote:Originally posted by PhilD:
On advantage of the underground river is, you get a flood for free when you find it

Though the river does flood on random occasions, you can only trust the river to flood at the begining of Summer; it will always do this. Creating floodgates allows you to flood the room where the farm fields will be IMMEDIATELY after winter, so you get another whole season to plant crops, instead of just summer + autumn if you used natural flooding..

[Aphix]

I've had some good luck with it so far. Late winter first year and still have 86 plump helmets left and thats with 87 units of dwarven wine that I brewed. Have almost as much dwarven beer and about half that in cave wheat still left over. Now just got to figure out what else I could grow that'd be useful. Never have had a successful first season in farming like this. Most everyones happy except for one of my miners got a head injury, which wasn't serious but he's been in bed for quite awhile now. Big cry babies they are. Anyways, if I end up with some migrants I'm so ready to start outfitting some military people and have them puttering around and training.

[Slartibartfast]

My best fort so far relies on the outside river for farming.
The "secret" is that you have to have a floodgate on the outermost position possible, and then another connected to the farm, like so:

code:

--,,,,BOOOOOO...
--_____X____X...
--,,,,BOOOOOO...
-=river
,=outside
O=unmined area
.=inside (where you want the farm
_=channel
X=floodgate
B=the cliff face
  

As seen in the diagram, you can't build a floodgate right between the B's, you have to put it one square to the right, but if you put it further inside, then the channel connected to it from the left will turn to mud later on.

[Blackcat]

My current game plan was based on the following:

- One Proficient Miner, who is set to dig a one-wide corridor due east until he hits the river. No hauling, only stopping to eat, drink and sleep. When he hits the river, he backtracks a bit, and digs out a 6x6 off the corridor near the river.

- One Skilled Woodcutter. His job is to chop trees and haul stuff.

- One Skilled Carpenter. He makes his workshop, dismantles the wagons, makes ten beds, then a bucket. After that, he's free to haul. The beds are installed into the narrow corridor. It means they get to sleep off the floor, and in the dry.

- One Skilled Mason with Architect (one rank above Novice). When the Miner hits the river, he uses the two pieces of stone nearest the river to build a bridge. He then builds a workshop in the room dug by the Miner, and makes two floodgates, two doors.

- One Mechanic/Stonecrafter. At the start, he builds a crafting workshop, and makes some light/dark stone crafts. When the 6x6 room is available, he makes a mechanics workshop in there, and builds six mechanisms.

- Two Proficient Growers. These guys are the key. Until the river is bridged, the farm dug out, the floodgates installed and connected, one is set to fish, the other set to clean fish. A fishery is built, and off they go, helping haul as well as bringing in basic food.

These steps get you a position with the river bridged, and basic workshops needed to get the farm built. Because of the bridge, you get a good layout revealed of the river. I pick an area above or below the main corridor, and ensure there's about ten map squares between the eastern river bank and the western edge of the farm. I usually dig a 6x6, with the future intention of ending up with four 6x6 arranged in a square. Floodgates are installed, and the necessary levers, channels are dug as well. I have managed to set farm plots being built in late-spring.

Once the farm is being built, the miner digs out a food storage room, again 6x6, adjacent and east of the planned 4 6x6 farms. Outside food is brought in, and then proceeds the plan of digging out a barracks, dining room, workshop space, and moving everything indoors.

When winter arrived on the first try at this plan, I had 70-ish meat from the caravan, 120-ish plump helmets, and after some aggresive mid-season crop mixing, over 70 dwarven ale and beer.

Needless to say, food was not a problem. The 12 spring migrants of utterly useless skills was a problem (two metalsmiths, I hadn't even done anything with metal yet; a jeweler, thanks; five, yes five, peasants). Considering the amount of planting, I was surprised another farmer didn't appear.

In all this, one important fact must be borne in mind: Proficient Growers. They seem to plant a bit faster, but more importantly every harvest plant is 2,3 or 4 'lots' of food.

[ September 02, 2006: Message edited by: Blackcat ]

[Blackcat]

http://www.blackcat.eclipse.co.uk/dwarffortress/local_map-1-1063-36629.png

That shows this first attempt in action.

I've gone for a plan based around 'blocks', each big enough to hold sixteen 6x6 rooms, with three-wide corridors in between. Obviously, it's only partially dug out.

At the top, is the first block of 2x3 bedrooms. It can eventually house 48 dwarves in the one block, with the intention of having a well in the middle part.

We have a big farm room in place, and two of the 6x6 rooms are currently food storage (eventually, food will be stored in a 13x13 next to the farming plots). The other 6x6 rooms are barracks, dining, food processing, kennels, masonry, carpentry, metalworking, ore storage, mechanics and weaving/clothworking.

As the population increases, I can add onto the existing housing as needed. The 6x6 rooms can be reassigned as more space is dug out, and eventually where needed knocked into 13x13 rooms.

The planned areas either side of the main entrance will only be reached by bridges north and south of the entrance bridge. The walls will be fortified. I haven't decided on how many catapults and ballistae to install in those side rooms yet.

[Tomn]

I'm a bit of a newbie, and the reports of scary frogmen from the cave river has led me to building a fortress entirely out of the area before the river.  Which kinda confuses me a bit.  I've never farmed from the cave river before, and have depended entirely upon the outside river.  Previous forts fell because I didn't get the farms done quickly enough, but every time I did get the farms up, the floodgate thing has always been straightforward and problemless.  All you do is to build out the farm cave, make maybe a three-line cut out to fresh air, put two floodgates next to each other right at the entrance, and then cut a channel from the river straight up to the floodgate.  Works every time.  Why the need for a canal between the floodgates?

[Aphix]

I've acctually been working off of just one floodgate, channel to the wall, then a single floodgate right on the first spot, it opens and floods the farm. Although I think I need to get more seeds to try and plant different things. My dwarves are going entirely off of plump helmets, dwarven wine and beer. But there haven't seemed to be any complaints as the alchohol has kept them happy, and a grand dining room which I'm still working on.

Currently up to a population of 39 and working on building my militia before digging much deeping. Going to try and outfit them with copper stuff for now, and then upgrade as I get deeper. Just takes lots of mining to find what I need when not even near the cave river yet. I think this build has been much more successful though, alot has to do with getting farms up really early and keeping the food and alchohol.

[PhilD]

Thanks Blackcat for your "planning" picture. My own fortresses invariably look like they've been designed "as they were being built" - which is exactly what happened. Now, maybe that's why the latest is erupting with hungry dwarves killing each other and leaving huge bloodstains in the halls...