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Author Topic: Metal and environmental Toxicity (Long Post Warning)  (Read 910 times)

Wedolko

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Metal and environmental Toxicity (Long Post Warning)
« on: August 09, 2016, 05:01:53 pm »

Hope you guys aren't too tiered of me putting up suggestions, because I have no plans on stopping. Thanks to toady for reading our suggestions, not many devs do stuff like this.
 I did a search and I couldn't find this suggestion anywhere, but let me know if I missed something.

Many metals and other substances in real life are poisonous, one theory about how Rome fell is the massive amount of lead they used in their water systems. However in dwarf fortress there is no lead poisoning, or any poisoning at all that doesn't come from creatures (as far as I know). This of course, could be explained away by saying dwarfs are immune because they live underground, but what fun is that? So I'd like to propose poisonous environments and objects. Here are a few syndromes I thought up, if you have any you'd like to add please do so. These are only ideas, and I don't expect to see all of them (or any really, unless toady likes it) happen.

Argyria: Caused by wearing +finely crafted+ silver jewelry or lower, or using +finely-crafted+ or lower silver weapons for a long time. Areas in contact with silver turn blue and become more vulnerable to damage. Goes away with time. Can be fixed by smelting into sterling silver or nickle silver. I would also like to suggest sterling silver be made weapons-grade to balance this.

Arsenic poisoning: Results from drinking from a aquifer in an area that has a sulfuric compound in the rock or soil above it, near a volcano, or nearby metal ores. Causes dizziness and drowsiness at first, then later vomiting, blood vomit and pain. In the final stages lungs, kidneys, and livers break down entirely, resulting in death.

Copper poisoning: Excessive use of copper in Barrels, goblets, kitchens, butcher shops, fisheries, and stills can lead to copper poisoning. Only causes vomiting at first, but continued exposure can make dwarfs vomit blood and irritable, leading to sudden bad thoughts and even tantrums.

Iron poisoning: Caused the same way as copper poisoning. Note that this is NOT Tetanus. Causes pain and vomiting, and blood vomiting at first, then disappears for a short time. If not treated immediately and stopped from eating food made at iron kitchens or drinking iron goblets, it re-emerges as liver and brain damage (permanent, but not deadly) if left alone to long, the dwarf COULD die from liver failure.

Lead Poisoning: Caused by having lead objects associated with food/drink. Additionally, if a dwarf is hit by any lead object and begins bleeding, there is a chance to get stage 1 lead poisoning. At first, it causes sadness, pain, and loss of appetite. As it progresses it causes kidney failure, anger, confusion, pain, and sterilization in men. At it's final stages it can cause brain damage, dehydration, loss of grip/ability to stand (hands and feet go numb) and complete insanity. Eventual death by brain damage (swelling)

Mercury poisoning: Not sure how it would be caused, I'm just listing it for fun. Symptoms include loss of vision, hearing, and/or speech, as well as general confusion depending on amount of exposure.

Nickle Poisoning: Caused by drinking out of nickle goblets, barrels, or stills, but takes a long time to build up. (IOW you should be fine as long as you don't make every single goblet and barrel out of nickle) Causes Anger, dizzyness, and lack of sleep. Later stages cause pain, rapid dehydration, and eventually death unless treated. Can be fixed by smelting into nickle-silver.

Poison Ivy/Oak: Grows naturally in some areas. Gives thinking creatures bad thoughts and blisters on exposed skin. NPCs will try to path around it like a wall, but will go through if there is no other way

Tetanus or Lockjaw: While iron rust hasn't been introduced yet, I believe toady said it was possible for a future update. Randomly caused by being injured with a rusty iron object(%chance of getting sick) A Dwarf with Lockjaw will randomly go into spasms where they will lay on the ground and flail their limbs around with indwarven strength. It starts off with low pain, but after a week it developed into uncontrolled spasms can tear at the dwarfs muscles, break his bones, and presents a major hazard to anyone close by, as well as rapid dehydration. While tetanus itself is survivable, the spasms often end up killing dwarfs who break their own backs or necks or collapse their lungs, and doctors helping them are at risk of having their heads knocked off.

Tin poisoning: Caused by storing food and drink in tin barrels for to long. Causes minor pain, vomiting, dizzyness, and chills (coldness bad thought? Idk)

Zinc Poisoning: Caused by repeatedly drinking out of zinc cups, barrels, or stills. Takes a long time to build up. Pain and vomiting.


Things that would have to be done:
Food items need to be able to be "tainted" without the player knowing what ones are toxic and what's safe to eat. Each food item taken to say, a lead kitchen would haft to leave with either:
A. a % chance of making a dwarf sick (each meal has a .5% or so chance to give lead poisoning)
B. a certain "toxicity value" that is applied to the food that when eaten is subtracted from a dwarfs "tolerance level". This stat would gain value over time untill it hit a cap affected by physical modifiers, but when it reached 0 the dwarf would become sick, and if he continued it would go down into the negatives. For instance, if Urist has a lead tolerance level of 500, and each meal has a toxic level of 50, it would take 10 meals cooked at the lead kitchen to make Urist sick, and further meals would make him take longer to recover. The longer he is below 0, the sicker he will get.

Of course, you need a different tolerance level for each metal and for poison oak, as different metals need more or less to make people sick. Rust, if ever implemented, would do better with the % chance of sickness than a tolerance level, however.

Wow I spent way longer writing this than I thought I would. Thanks for reading this and be sure to let me know what you think.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 05:03:37 pm by Wedolko »
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RysanMarquise

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Re: Metal and environmental Toxicity (Long Post Warning)
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2016, 05:26:28 pm »

I believe this would work well with some sort of apothecary system.

An apothicary or herbalist being able to diagnose these problems.
Various herbs being able to cure them, likely that would need to be imported.
Perhaps also 'training up'  disease resistance by getting sick and cured, so its a good idea in some ways to let these problems happen.


When both of these systems are combined I believe they help flesh out the game more, but on its own it would mostly be an annoyance.
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Wedolko

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Re: Metal and environmental Toxicity (Long Post Warning)
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2016, 05:36:09 pm »


When both of these systems are combined I believe they help flesh out the game more, but on its own it would mostly be an annoyance.

I can Definitely agree that it might get annoying if you're not paying attention and make a bunch of goblets out of iron or lead. A medical update would definitely be needed before a lot of this could be implemented. I just like spit-balling ideas.
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Bumber

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Re: Metal and environmental Toxicity (Long Post Warning)
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2016, 06:38:13 pm »

Can you even get some of these symptoms without literally ingesting/inhaling large quantities of metal? For example, iron is required in small amounts by the body, and you're not going to overdose on the tiny amounts leached from containers.

Mercury poisoning would be caused by mining or working with cinnabar.

After some Wikipedia research:
Silver (argyria) - You're only going to get this from long term use of folk remedies (colloidal silver) and silver processing. Furnace operators may be at risk. Skin contact with silver goods is probably harmless.
Copper (copperiedus) - Storing acidic foods in copper containers. High concentrations of Copper Sulfate in aquifers can be lethal. Water flowing through copper pipes doesn't seem to be a concern.
Iron - Only caused by overdosing on iron supplements (a treatment for anemia.) Use of iron as a supplement may be after the 1400 cutoff date. Furnace operators don't seem to be at risk.
Arsenic - Contaminated aquifer. Orpiment and realgar goods. Both minerals historically used as a pigment.
Lead - Lead goods, food grown in contaminated soil, meat killed with lead ammo (can't make) or edged weaponry (artifact), lead paint, lead cosmetics, improperly made lead-glazed ceramics, lead sugar, etc. It's bad.
Mercury (hydrargyria) - Cinnabar goods, also historically used as a pigment. Cinnabar mining was a death sentence in Roman times. Mercury vapor exposure for alchemists.
Nickel - Doesn't build up in the body, but heavy or long term exposure can be very toxic/carcinogenic. Nickel jewelry and smelting could be an issue. Containers are probably within acceptable limits, even over the long term.
Tin - Acidic foods in tin containers. Not absorbed by the body, but can cause nausea, vomiting and diarrhea.
Zinc - Swallowing a bunch of zinc coins. Zinc containers aren't a risk to dwarves, but can be lethal to parrots. (Good riddance to keas!)

Also: Nickel silver doesn't contain silver. Nickel alloys can still cause nickel poisoning.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 11:11:11 pm by Bumber »
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LMeire

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Re: Metal and environmental Toxicity (Long Post Warning)
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2016, 08:11:44 am »

Iron toxicity would probably also show up in vampires and other sanguivores, considering the high iron content in blood. Adventurers too, now that I think of it.
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Wedolko

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Re: Metal and environmental Toxicity (Long Post Warning)
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2016, 10:37:59 pm »

Can you even get some of these symptoms without literally ingesting/inhaling large quantities of metal? For example, iron is required in small amounts by the body, and you're not going to overdose on the tiny amounts leached from containers.

Mercury poisoning would be caused by mining or working with cinnabar.

After some Wikipedia research:
Silver (argyria) - You're only going to get this from long term use of folk remedies (colloidal silver) and silver processing. Furnace operators may be at risk. Skin contact with silver goods is probably harmless.
Copper (copperiedus) - Storing acidic foods in copper containers. High concentrations of Copper Sulfate in aquifers can be lethal. Water flowing through copper pipes doesn't seem to be a concern.
Iron - Only caused by overdosing on iron supplements (a treatment for anemia.) Use of iron as a supplement may be after the 1400 cutoff date. Furnace operators don't seem to be at risk.
Arsenic - Contaminated aquifer. Orpiment and realgar goods. Both minerals historically used as a pigment.
Lead - Lead goods, food grown in contaminated soil, meat killed with lead ammo (can't make) or edged weaponry (artifact), lead paint, lead cosmetics, improperly made lead-glazed ceramics, lead sugar, etc. It's bad.
Mercury (hydrargyria) - Cinnabar goods, also historically used as a pigment. Cinnabar mining was a death sentence in Roman times. Mercury vapor exposure for alchemists.
Nickel - Doesn't build up in the body, but heavy or long term exposure can be very toxic/carcinogenic. Nickel jewelry and smelting could be an issue. Containers are probably within acceptable limits, even over the long term.
Tin - Acidic foods in tin containers. Not absorbed by the body, but can cause nausea, vomiting and diarrhea.
Zinc - Swallowing a bunch of zinc coins. Zinc containers aren't a risk to dwarves, but can be lethal to parrots. (Good riddance to keas!)

Also: Nickel silver doesn't contain silver. Nickel alloys can still cause nickel poisoning.

Interesting.

What your referring to is generalized Argyria, and yes I imagine the smelters would be at risk, but localized argyria affects a small part of the body in constant contact with crap silver, especially piercings and rings, and might affect smiths who work with it. It's more common then you might think.

With copper and tin you bring up a good point with acidic foods. I'd image iron could also be lumped in with this? While iron is required in the body, eating food laced with traces of iron every day for years on end might cause some health issues. Meat, poultry, fish, dairy, eggs, and grains are all acidic to a degree, as is beer and wine.

Perhaps cinnabar could deteriorate a dwarfs health. It would be cool to see a practical function for getting and using mercury.

As for zinc is it just parrots? Or are other birds affected? Maybe some anti-roc weaponry?

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Bumber

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Re: Metal and environmental Toxicity (Long Post Warning)
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2016, 11:16:15 pm »

While iron is required in the body, eating food laced with traces of iron every day for years on end might cause some health issues.
The recommended intake is 18 mg daily. Even if you manage a bit more than that (keeping in mind the mass has to come off the object,) your body will probably just get rid of it.

Quote
As for zinc is it just parrots? Or are other birds affected? Maybe some anti-roc weaponry?
Based on the title of the source, it might be all birds. The size of rocs probably protects them, though. Sphalerite gizzard stones might be lethal.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 11:22:24 pm by Bumber »
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?