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[Neonivek]

Hello everyone since I was told that I should actually create a topic for all my musings and comments instead of putting it in the WTF topic all the time (and was told people wouldn't just ignore it) I decided to give it a chance.

Feel free to comment or give your own musings here! Just give people respect and this thread should be fine.

But I guess I should start

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Ok for the most part I don't like the point system in old point and click adventure games often making you do actions and seek things out that have nothing to do with the task on hand.

For example Eco Quest 1 made you pick up all the garbage under the sea and while Eco Quest also made you do this (at one part creating a whole scene of you doing nothing but cleaning up garbage) but also made you scan every single piece of wildlife in the game (which I did anyway... just because ... I actually like that mechanic).

But I didn't bring this up to complain about it but rather to list the exception! The point and click adventure game where I loved the point system!

Star Trek!

In that game generally speaking if it is a good idea, it gets you a point. Did you have Spock Scan the alien? Did you have McCoy check on the body to see if they were alive? The game rewards your cleverness with points rather then your exhaustive inquisitiveness. A big example is at one point of the game you end up taking an enemy ship with them onboard... You can go back to your ship at anytime and really things will go on their hand... But you can also lock their controls out or just up and shoot them.

They creators of this game actually went really in depth and instead of making the points, pointless (and they still KIND of are). Instead you can think of them as indication of how good you are doing on the mission. A perfect score basically amounts to a perfect run.

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There is one other game that does similarly: Laura Bow and the Colonel's Bequest

One of the most genius games ever created and it is a DOS era game. The fact that it has never been copied or even had a true sequel (it has sequels but none that are the same style) just confounds me. You play as Laura who can best be considered a sort of Junior Detective (she later would become a reporter) whose best friend is having a relative read his will with his entire family... But all isn't as it seems.

Basically the entire game is on a sort of timer with events happening at certain times. Yet what it kind of interesting is that you can sneak in on conversations and decide how much information you let others know themselves. You can make use of secret passageways that are actually pretty intuitive but it also creates a tension as you never know who is listening or who could also be in there with you.

But winning the game is relatively easy. Yet at the end of it, it will give you a score basically about how much you actually solved. Winning with a score of 0 is essentially "you didn't die" and the villain basically gets away.

[Loud Whispers]

I heard this is a muse thread

[Harry Baldman]

The points in, say, Sierra adventure games kind of make sense in that they measure your progress after a fashion. Given that there were many, many more ways to fail in most Sierra adventures than there were to succeed, being given points for doing the correct thing gives you at least some kind of feedback. Not really relevant in an age of walkthroughs anymore.

I recall Legend of Kyrandia 3 also doing points, but they were there mostly for humorous purposes (for instance, using the jester's staff on just about everybody) and it was pretty much impossible to get all 900 in a playthrough, given that the paths you could take each gave points and were mutually exclusive.

[Neonivek]

Ok there is no word more abused in the English language then that of "Entitled" basically being used as a way to insult someone while saying "You have no right to complain"

So for example if someone is complaining that their food is underdone in a restaurant... They would be called entitled.

Yet lately this whole "Entitled" insult has been upgraded to a new level of "What the heck?" with the word being used when the people are literally entitled.

So, for example, people paying for food... receiving none being called Entitled... Even though they are literally entitled to the food... on their plate.

It is why as far as people who use that term goes... Just completely ignore them. They don't seem to understand how entitlement works and basically their entire argument amounts to "You are entitled because your opinion differs from mine". Hardly anyone uses that term correctly unless they are using it in a positive way "You are entitled to representation in a court of law unless you forgo it and chose to represent yourself".

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The latest in this is Kickstarter and for those who don't know basically with this you fund projects with hope that they will one day bloom into actual products that you will usually get at the end (not always).

So what is occurring is that people who are funding these projects get angsty with how long it is taking, certain decisions, or overall how the product had turned out.

And they are being called Entitled... For being literally entitled... and being mad that their money isn't being used in a timely or effective matter, something as a funder they are entitled to.

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But honestly what bugs me the most about this use of Entitled as an insult is... Being Entitled is supposed to be a GOOD thing.

We are in a free country where we believe people are ENTITLED to rights and privileges that we would fight to the death to protect. Our law states that you are entitled to fair and just treatment, that if you pay for something you are entitled to it or a refund.

Calling someone entitled as an insult is just so backwards to me... because it is like saying someone is entitled because they believe they shouldn't be beaten up by the police for no reason.

Yeah... they mean "Entitled to things they do not have an entitlement to"... But instead of saying say... Spoiled. They use... Entitled.

Why? Because spoiled is a word that is hard to prove. Entitled... well... EVERYONE is entitled. So it cannot be disproven.

[Dorsidwarf]

This stream-of-consciousness brought to you by NeoNeviks frontal cortex.

[Loud Whispers]

But honestly what bugs me the most about this use of Entitled as an insult is... Being Entitled is supposed to be a GOOD thing.
We are in a free country where we believe people are ENTITLED to rights and privileges that we would fight to the death to protect. Our law states that you are entitled to fair and just treatment, that if you pay for something you are entitled to it or a refund.
Calling someone entitled as an insult is just so backwards to me... because it is like saying someone is entitled because they believe they shouldn't be beaten up by the police for no reason.
Yeah... they mean "Entitled to things they do not have an entitlement to"... But instead of saying say... Spoiled. They use... Entitled.
Why? Because spoiled is a word that is hard to prove. Entitled... well... EVERYONE is entitled. So it cannot be disproven.

Entitled
 adjective
Believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment:
'kids who feel so entitled and think the world will revolve around them'
'his pompous, entitled attitude'

Dunno man it seems pretty clear this is insulting
Works in legal context because you're literally inherently deserving of whatever you're being offered

Also I've just been thinking, what's the bloody point of mosquitoes

Why can't they be smart enough to consider suicide

[Strife26]

Entitled id like justness, it's one of those words that modern conversation like to use as a shorthand to abandon all reason and go with the feels. They're both very strong indicators to stop conversing with the person in question.

[Harry Baldman]

Also I've just been thinking, what's the bloody point of mosquitoes

Why can't they be smart enough to consider suicide

They take your blood and reintroduce it to the food chain. Without mosquitoes spiders would have kind of a bad time.

[Reelya]

But honestly what bugs me the most about this use of Entitled as an insult is... Being Entitled is supposed to be a GOOD thing.
We are in a free country where we believe people are ENTITLED to rights and privileges that we would fight to the death to protect. Our law states that you are entitled to fair and just treatment, that if you pay for something you are entitled to it or a refund.
Calling someone entitled as an insult is just so backwards to me... because it is like saying someone is entitled because they believe they shouldn't be beaten up by the police for no reason.
Yeah... they mean "Entitled to things they do not have an entitlement to"... But instead of saying say... Spoiled. They use... Entitled.
Why? Because spoiled is a word that is hard to prove. Entitled... well... EVERYONE is entitled. So it cannot be disproven.

Entitled
 adjective
Believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment:
'kids who feel so entitled and think the world will revolve around them'
'his pompous, entitled attitude'

Googling "dictionary entitled", the first 5 links agreed with Neonivek, you picked the 6th search result.

[Harry Baldman]

Googling "dictionary entitled", the first 5 links agreed with Neonivek, you picked the 6th search result. Not very objective way to prove something.

I think the issue there is that just using 'entitled' is a contraction. The original use is 'acting entitled' as opposed to 'being entitled', where the difference is in the legitimacy of the entitlement. Same thing with 'feelings of entitlement', as feelings are indeed largely worthless in the objective scheme of things.

Point is, qualifying entitlement discourages pedantry. Since there really are quite a few people with unreasonable feelings of entitlement in the world.

Besides, what he proved was that the usage is attested to by a source, and his source illustrated what is commonly meant when you hear 'entitled' on the internet, which is indeed a specific use that does not entirely reflect the original meaning of the word 'entitled'. It's not a popularity contest, merely a question of accuracy.

[Orange Wizard]

Googling "dictionary entitled", the first 5 links agreed with Neonivek, you picked the 6th search result. Not very objective way to prove something.

LW's definition is what people mean when they use entitled as an insult, other definitions are other meanings of entitled that aren't insults.

Like calling someone a mongoloid. You don't mean they're literally from Mongolia, you mean they're a dumbass or whatever

And they are being called Entitled... For being literally entitled... and being mad that their money isn't being used in a timely or effective matter, something as a funder they are entitled to.

But donating to a kickstarter doesn't make you entitled to the product

Admittedly complaining about a developer or whoever being dumb/lazy/scummy is 100% reasonable, so vov

[Neonivek]

But donating to a kickstarter doesn't make you entitled to the product

Except when you are

And the number of funders who chose not to partake in the product are usually the minority.

[Orange Wizard]

I mean, the producer doesn't have a legal obligation to follow through.

[Harry Baldman]

The point with Kickstarter is that you're not entitled to anything in the legal sense except a refund if the Kickstarter fails if I understand correctly. I'm not sure you're even entitled to actually receiving your pledge rewards.

Despite this fact it's still entirely reasonable to talk shit about a developer who doesn't deliver, naturally. How else are you supposed to let people know that they have a history of fucking up on Kickstarter?

There's also the 'free speech' thing where being legally entitled to not being imprisoned for saying something is confused with being legally entitled to having your opinions and directives be respected, listened to or obeyed, which isn't the case at all and is a source of delusional feelings of entitlement.

[Reelya]

Googling "dictionary entitled", the first 5 links agreed with Neonivek, you picked the 6th search result. Not very objective way to prove something.

I think the issue there is that just using 'entitled' is a contraction. The original use is 'acting entitled' as opposed to 'being entitled', where the difference is in the legitimacy of the entitlement. Same thing with 'feelings of entitlement', as feelings are indeed largely worthless in the objective scheme of things.

It's a contraction plus a shift in meaning. Entitled originally just meant actually entitled. And by "originally" I mean from the dawn of the English language up until the mid 1970s.

It's actually well documented when the negative connotations came about - the term was adopted in the mid 1970's by a couple of American conservative political pundits, Robert Nisbet and Robert Nozick  to attack social welfare spending. The goal in the language shift was to rephrase the basic safety net (food, medical treatment etc) as a privilege rather than a right. So the language shift itself was highly political right from the start and spearheaded by partisan activists. Personally, I'm not that happy with the American FOX News brigade basically dictating their own Newspeak meanings for English words.