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[Rockphed]

I am forever baffled that it is somehow the progresiv thing to do to allow agribusinesses to exploit illegal aliens for slave wages. It's mostly a talking point that Americans won't do those jobs, there are plenty of Americans who would apply if they were open (though maybe the people who believe this meme think it's beneath them,) companies simply don't want to hire them because they can easily get illegals instead.

I'm nearly out of civility for dealing with ignorance and lies. You know full well that you've presented a straw man of liberal viewpoints. Since I'm trying to be nice, I will presume that you have been misinformed by someone else rather than having personally crafted an excuse for racism and neofascism.

The path-to-citizenship as proposed by liberals is a tool to END exploitation of illegal immigrants by granting them the protections of citizenship. Trump's effort to create a sub-citizen class of immigrants is the advancement of this new slavery. The only reason that liberals haven't achieved a humanist immigration reform is because of continuing Republican opposition over the past 16+ years.

Honestly, the two tools that need to be employed to get a more sane immigration policy are to open the borders to travel (so that less people smuggle themselves over), and throw out/imprison all the bad actors.  I.e. I think the US should have a more immigration friendly immigration process AND be more diligent in punishing people who enter the country illegally.  This makes me somewhere in the middle on immigration.  Or perhaps somewhere off to the side.  The hard-line "throw them all out and lock the doors" is a stupid idea that will just result in more money flowing to the people-smugglers.  The other hard line "all illegal immigrants are just mis-understood and/or exploited people" is also a bit beyond the truth.

And yeah, the requirements to become a permanent resident are a bit too onerous.  I have a classmate from Nigeria(I think), who forewent applying for a greencard because there was a 2 year waiting time.

I am forever baffled that it is somehow the progresiv thing to do to allow agribusinesses to exploit illegal aliens for slave wages. It's mostly a talking point that Americans won't do those jobs, there are plenty of Americans who would apply if they were open (though maybe the people who believe this meme think it's beneath them,) companies simply don't want to hire them because they can easily get illegals instead.

Its not.  No side of the American political spectrum is happy about below minimum wage immigrant workers.

The difference is that democrats don't like it because its exploitative and republicans don't like it because its "stealing" jobs from Americans.

And I don't like it because I think the minimum wage is a bad idea (which is a whole other conversation).

[smjjames]

@rockphed: Opening up the borders still doesn't solve the smuggler issue, the only way to solve that is to reform the legal immigration system. You yourself said that you have a friend who skipped the legal route because it'd take too long. The politicians are intent on curing the symptoms rather than the disease. Securing the border is great and all, but it doesn't solve the underlying issue.

Ispil here, correct me if I misstate, has lived in the US since he was a kid (immigrated when young) and won't be able to become a legal citizen for another two years (I believe).

[McTraveller]

I think ultimately most people only care about immigration because A) they think people aren't paying taxes but are using up public resources, B) they don't like the influx of different cultural / social norms, C) there may be in their geographic area an influx of more workers than available jobs, putting downward pressure on wages, and/or D) they don't like that because of the current system, people can abuse (illegal) immigrants under threat of deportation.

In my opinion: only A and D can be addressed by legislation; legislation that tries to "fix" B and C is destined for failure in the long run.

[Baffler]

224,000 of those "illegal Mexican agricultural workers" were actually legal. At least, in 2014.

I talked about agriculture because that's what people mentioned, but the fact remains that importing something like 11 million mostly unskilled workers who don't have a minimum wage or any real protection (health and safety regulations still apply to them, but they would likely be deported after complaining so they usually just don't) has and will have a dampening effect on wages paid to everyone else and increases competition for an already small pool of jobs for the size of the population that can fill them. Companies get away with it far too easily.

Legal immigration should be easier, yeah, but the US has no need for even more unskilled workers. Tradespeople are a good example, lots of people who are illegal now have these skills but there is a shortage in the US. Giving these people an avenue for citizenship is perfectly sensible.

Edit: forgot source.

[smjjames]

Nobody said you weren't paying taxes Ispil. McTraveller is just stating a common reason given for caring about immigration.

[McTraveller]

We pay taxes. Hell, when they gave me my greencard, I even got a brochure that included my right to pay more taxes.

I guess I should have specified "they think immigrants only get paid under the table and so don't pay taxes".  The legislative fix for that is to crack down on under-the-table pay; regardless of the pay being to citizens or non-citizens.  That issue doesn't really have anything to do with immigration. And especially for the cases where non-citizens are paid above-board and so have taxes withheld.

EDIT: sniped by @smjjames!

[PTTG??]

What just happened?

I have two hypotheses, and neither of them are good.

A: They resigned in protest over existant or upcoming changes, which while a moral stand leaves Tillerson in position to move forward unimpeded.
B: They were fired specifically in order to move them out of the way.

[martinuzz]

A) would delay decision making though. You can't just replace a full senior staff overnight.

[martinuzz]

Meanwhile, earlier today the Mexican president said that he might cancel his visit to the US over the wall issue. Trump responded that he might cancel the appointment with the Mexican president unless Mexico pays for the wall. The Mexican president responded by officially cancelling his visit to the US.

Welcome to the new world order of Kindergarten politics

the Mexican minister of Finance, Jose Antonio Maede commented on the whole affair. "I don't think diplomacy should be conducted over Twitter like this".

[Baffler]

What just happened?

I have two hypotheses, and neither of them are good.

A: They resigned in protest over existant or upcoming changes, which while a moral stand leaves Tillerson in position to move forward unimpeded.
B: They were fired specifically in order to move them out of the way.

It could be either one. It seems odd that they'd all be dumped off at once, that'll probably create a good bit of confusion in the organization and as the article says that talent is hard to replace. Maybe the all quit to avoid the embarrassing situation of training up their replacement that signed on a couple weeks ago, heh. OTOH Trump has spoken at length about problems in the intelligence and foreign service, and they haven't exactly kept their dislike of him private either. Conspiracy types are already shouting about "purging teh deep state," but if they were "fired with grace" it sounds more like maybe we're just seeing some house cleaning to head potential trouble off at the pass. An intelligence service or diplomatic corps hostile to the civilian government is a very dangerous thing after all.

[Sergarr]

Meanwhile, earlier today the Mexican president said that he might cancel his visit to the US over the wall issue. Trump responded that he might cancel the appointment with the Mexican president unless Mexico pays for the wall. The Mexican president responded by officially cancelling his visit to the US.

Trump diplomacy, everyone! And that person is in charge of thousands of nuclear weapons...

[Urist McScoopbeard]

tbh decadent westerners need to learn work ethic, not outsource virtue

not surprising that you need migrants when hard work and self sufficiency is bad to USA minds

Not sure if serious and also a (several?) full page(s) ago, but just want to put my two cents in on this. Americans love hard work--IF--they're having a measurable impact on society or doing what they want. The youngest (my) generation loves hard work. That's just a false assumption about Americans as a general demographic--the truth is that because things are not as good as they used to be, young Americans have no motivation to work hard because they know it won't get them very far compared to their parents and grandparents, while the latter's generation berates the former for being lazy--you wouldn't feel very beholden to contribute either.

I am only the 3rd generation in my family to go to college, and only the 2nd to get a bachelor's level degree. I personally stay up late and work as hard as possible at what I do--even when I worked my shitty CVS clerk job, because I know that I'm lucky enough that this work can actually get me a job in a field I'm not only proud to be part of, but want to be part of. All you have to do is take a look at the political climate to observe the same--If American's don't feel they have freedom in their decision making or a chance to be a part of things, then they dont give a shit. Why vote if neither option that has a practical chance supports you? Why work hard when you know that you'll just be in the same spot for 20 years?

This mentality is only further supported by a history of entrepreneurialism at the expense of others, and a near-constant fight for better conditions for people who perhaps do not have the practical equality of opportunity that America was founded on--remember the US still has more more lax laws about ethical business policy than some places in the EU. I mean, if Americans--and I think people in general--know they have no chance to achieve something then they will do the absolute bare minimum to get by. In the US, it's really "Give me liberty, or give me death" when it comes to jobs. I won't speak to foreign mentalities and immigration--but I've seen dozens of people who went from bright-eyed youths who had really begun to achieve, to adults who just existed without greater purpose.

[martinuzz]

Trump diplomacy, everyone! And that person is in charge of thousands of nuclear weapons...

Indeed. It's the least happy I've been in ages with the US nukes sitting in an airforce base just 30-ish kilometers from where I am. I've been contemplating calling 112 over them and send the police to disarm them. What if he gets angry at this satire video we made about him, and detonates them on site? A ground detonation of those nukes would ruin our pork meat for centuries. (My province is famous for having more pigs than people)

[smjjames]

Meanwhile, earlier today the Mexican president said that he might cancel his visit to the US over the wall issue. Trump responded that he might cancel the appointment with the Mexican president unless Mexico pays for the wall. The Mexican president responded by officially cancelling his visit to the US.

Welcome to the new world order of Kindergarten politics

the Mexican minister of Finance, Jose Antonio Maede commented on the whole affair. "I don't think diplomacy should be conducted over Twitter like this".

He's also doing the same attitude that Trump has been doing 'My country first!', plus he absolutely refuses to pay for the wall.

I don't foresee US-Mexico relations improving anytime soon, and apparently one of his plans to make Mexico pay for the wall is a blatant attempt at extortion: https://assets.donaldjtrump.com/Pay_for_the_Wall.pdf (not sure how old this is)

Meanwhile, Trump could really screw up Mexicos (and by extension, the US's) economy.

[EnigmaticHat]

I don't see what the practical point of kicking out illegal immigrants is.  Almost half of them immigrated legally anyway, and almost all of them with the same aims that legal immigrants would have had.  Like OK it proves a point by enforcing the law I guess.

Its never a good thing to have a population that can't go to the police for help.  That's how you get second class citizens, and that's how you get widespread victimization.  If an illegal immigrant dies because they weren't willing to seek protection from the cops, or they didn't have health insurance to seek preventative care, that's not a win.  That's a loss in my book.

These people would have been let in anyway under a sane system, the difference is they would have left.  Tighter border controls over the past 60 years resulted in people who would have come and left on temporary visas just... staying.  The demand is there, now its filled by undocumented workers rather than documented ones.  The thing is, mexican immigrants fill an important role in the US economy and society.  The US population growth rate is 1.88 births per woman.  The average lifespan in the US is 80 years, so that means that over 80 years we need (1.88/2 (percentage of population loss without immigrants over ~80 years) * 320 (population of US in millions) /80 = .2) 200,000 immigrants per year to maintain a stable population.  We allow 500,000 legal immigrants per year (we naturalize about the same).  BUT, the norm for the world is a population growth of about 1.11% per year, which for the US would be (320 * .01) ~3.2 million.  Meaning that we need 2.4 million illegal immigrants, or if all illegals were deported we would need 2.7 illegal immigrants to maintain average population growth.  And as people have noted, migrant works and illegal immigrants fill a different economic niche than the average American.

(if my population statistics don't match up: remember.  Baby boomers were born baby 40s to 60s and account for 20% of the population.  Birth rate dropped in the 70s.  Sometime, the boomers are going to start dying off and then things will get real interesting)