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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1395208 times)

Sheb

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18375 on: January 26, 2017, 08:44:18 am »

President Donald Trump to publish weekly list of crimes committed by immigrants

Note: "immigrants". Not "illegal immigrants", just "immigrants".

Yeah, I'm sure this is Bannon's idea. Likewise he apparently wants to create an "Office for Victims of Crime by Removable Aliens", because apparently the current Office for Victims isn't up to the job. Then he can slowly spread the idea that foreigners are criminal scum.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18376 on: January 26, 2017, 08:49:38 am »

So looking at news today it seems President Trump is actually delivering on his campaign promises. Halting immigration from predominantly muslim countries, cutting back the refugee program, signing an order to begin building the wall.

The absolute madman, a person in a position of political power is actually doing what he said he would.
... so have any of y'all happened to actually read the executive orders? Some fun stuff in there. Some that immediately jumped out... ICE is now on paper to have its employee numbers increased by about 50% (10k new officers, currently employment is ~20k total), customs and border folks are looking at at-least a rough 1/5th increase in border patrol officers (5k more, currently about 21-22k, making up a rough 1/3rd or so of CBP's total headcount). USCIS looks to be untouched, at least so far.

Secretary of Homeland Security is now being said to have sole and unreviewable discretion in determining if an immigration officer is appropriately handling the identification of immigrants and asylum seekers -- this was previously a power the attorney general had, but it's apparently changing hands (now, why you'd want to pass that power from the legal affairs position to the internal security one...).

If they weren't already before, all government agencies are being told to exclude all non-citizens or permanent residents from any protections vis a vis personally identifiable information they may have, to the full extent allowable by the 1974 Privacy Act. I'm not saying it's a good time for a gov't worker to have a side job in identity theft, but...

Handful of things that look kinda' sketchy in emphasizing gov't actors are only going to be held accountable to the plain language reading of certain statutes.

E: Oh, right, and the hiring freeze on all non-military federal positions that don't get exemption (mostly determined by position elect fiat, near as I can tell) is in effect.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:52:14 am by Frumple »
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18377 on: January 26, 2017, 08:50:21 am »

...holy shit I might actually have to consider leaving. If he takes away voting rights for immigrants, I'm gone.

Did I not say that he paints with broad strokes on immigration?
Best case, Trump will lose his voting rights too. Scottish-German bastard. Idem for his wife and children.
2020: First Native American President voted into office by the remaining few million US inhabitants that are allowed to vote.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:52:46 am by martinuzz »
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18378 on: January 26, 2017, 08:54:32 am »

Section 14.
Quote
Sec. 14.  Privacy Act.  Agencies shall, to the extent consistent with applicable law, ensure that their privacy policies exclude persons who are not United States citizens or lawful permanent residents from the protections of the Privacy Act regarding personally identifiable information.

... though I guess it's only applicable to executive departments and agencies? Not sure what that excludes, tbh.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 08:57:48 am by Frumple »
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18379 on: January 26, 2017, 09:14:58 am »

... eh? Non-citizens and folks that aren't permanent residents are to be excluded. Pretty sure that's what I said? Does the latter need the legal bit specified or somethin'?
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Erkki

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18380 on: January 26, 2017, 09:31:22 am »

Donald really is delivering, starting from day 1.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18381 on: January 26, 2017, 09:34:23 am »

... did the non not come across as propagating? Was the intent.  Probably early enough I'm having trouble seeing how y'come to a different conclusion. Still, apologies for any confusion, heh.
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McTraveller

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18382 on: January 26, 2017, 09:52:40 am »

So...philosophical question. Based on the fact that much of the ire here is surrounding the issue of attempts to curtail non-citizens from doing things (e.g., voting) or being subject to certain things (deportation) that only citizens should be allowed (or excluded from)?

The question is - if you have certain privileges available only to citizens, how should you go about ensuring that only citizens are exercising those privileges?  Barring some kind of identification registry - how would you do it?

Even further - if you aren't even going to ensure that citizens are the ones exercising certain privileges, what's the point in citizenship in the first place?
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18383 on: January 26, 2017, 10:22:46 am »

I'd say citizenship as defined by birthright is pointless. Border control is fine, but access to state resources should have a different barrier. Say, having contributed x years to the welfare as a productive member? There are many variation of this across fiction, going from religion to race to military service, but I think that ultimately the issue is economical, and should be treated as such.

I.e: in Italy if you want to stay but aren't a student and aren't employed you have to pay for welfare access. Not a huge amount, of course, but I think it's a good model in principle.

About economical migrants: no job and no resources? No entry. This is what Australia does, for example. Easy for them that have oceans all sides, but still.
The only exception would be temporary political refugees. But even there I'm conflicted on how'd be best to fulfill humanitarians needs without robbing foreign countries of their best brainpower, leaving the masses to suffer without the natural agent for change.
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MorleyDev

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18384 on: January 26, 2017, 10:23:54 am »

Is it just me, or is Trump devolving into a Dwarf Fortress Mayor?

Who else is waiting for the executive order demanding 7 cotton socks?
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18385 on: January 26, 2017, 10:28:49 am »

And then Yellowstone park erupts and covers half of the US in magma.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18386 on: January 26, 2017, 10:30:48 am »

I was going to post a Vox article about four leaked drafts of immigration executive orders, but I decided to wait until today when Trump actually released the executive orders. But now that Ispil is perturbed anyway, here's the article.

While the entire native focus isn't surprising, the crackdown is pretty harsh, don't know if it's harsher than what the US has done in the past though....

Though in the world of DF, it's pretty normal. Begone ye soapmakers! (although soapmakers have an actual function now, even if minor).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2017, 10:32:31 am by smjjames »
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18387 on: January 26, 2017, 10:43:44 am »

soapmakers have an actual function
So this is why the world has gone crazy! /joke
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18388 on: January 26, 2017, 10:45:26 am »

The question is - if you have certain privileges available only to citizens, how should you go about ensuring that only citizens are exercising those privileges?  Barring some kind of identification registry - how would you do it?
Well, there's these things called living addresses, birth certificates, and tax forms. Along those lines. Stuff that's either pretty hard to get and maintain without being a citizen, or means they're paying anyway (i.e. acting like a citizen de facto, if not de jure) and about the only reason to really care is ideological (and, just sayin', but ideological purity only goes so far towards keeping our roads from falling apart even faster). Makes figuring out if the person's a citizen pretty easy, most of the time. Some folks will probably slip through, but here's a secret when it comes to wide scale administration: If not enough people are getting through to break the system as a whole, it functionally doesn't matter if some are, particularly when that subset isn't enough to meaningfully strain the system in question and/or costs more to fix than it does to let ride.* The optimization point is between full enforcement and no enforcement, not one or the other.

Beyond that, though, the point isn't actually to make sure it's all and only citizens. Mostly is good enough, and mostly is much easier, far less likely to have to shit all over those mentioned privileges to obtain, and costs bucketloads less t'boot. Indicates your country has a moral character worth two damns, too, since you'll treat even folks that aren't one of yours well enough when they're on your land.**

As for the second question, if indeed the country was failing to ensure citizens had access to any and all privileges thereto, there wouldn't be much point. There also wouldn't be a country, for what that's worth. Still, there could be advantages to being a citizen even if you don't have much in the way of official government support -- various business concerns, support from fellow citizens (brought about by human psychology if not legal enforcement), all those sorts of things. There's more gains from being a citizen than just what the government on top of it dole out, basically. That said, falling short of absolute exclusionary perfection on a few rights generally still manages to leave an pretty massive amount of advantages for citizens, in most cases, and is usually pretty excusable/ignorable/understandable when managing that perfection entails a logistical nightmare just as a starting point. The equivalent of a few percent's worth of your population getting limited access to some of those isn't exactly an apocalypse scenario.

* The latter is why a fair amount of welfare et al has a lot of pressure to abandon or avoid means testing, by the by. Active enforcement has this nasty habit of costing more than just kinda'... not.
** Tip for the unknowing: When it comes to legal et al matters, pretty much every constitutional and most legal protections applies to non-citizens as well when they're in US jurisdiction. Closest to an exception you can get there is repatriation (to the originating country) or contested jurisdiction (and usually no one wants that, so folks figure out which court someone's going to be tried in pretty quick). It's one of the reasons being an undocumented immigrant (and a good chunk of the stuff surrounding that) isn't a criminal offense -- if it was, they would be entitled to the full protection of american due process and all the rigmarole surrounding it.

===

... all that said, most of the ire you're going to see is less about the issues relating to citizenship and more about the ones related to the problems involved with enforcing your mentioned attempts. Conceptually it's a good thing and most folks'll get in on it to some degree or another (there's a couple exceptions loitering around GD, but complete or near complete abolishment of citizenship and whatnot isn't a common stance), but when it practically means the harassment and abuse of people, citizens and otherwise, the erosion of rule of law and moral character of your country (this is particularly an issue for the US, as the thing was built on immigrants, most of which were not exactly well documented), a general reduction in various rights, and a number of other things of ill extent (especially including excessive cost, when the funds and effort could instead be going to stuff like making sure people have running water, stable power grids, and functioning roads), yeah, people are going to start getting pretty concerned.
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18389 on: January 26, 2017, 11:10:15 am »

When searching for the terms 'asshole', 'golden shower', or even 'Putin' on Twitter, Trump's Twitter account made it to the very top of the recommendation list on all those keywords.
Twitter has announced it is taking immediate action to change this.
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Friendly and polite reminder for optimists: Hope is a finite resource

We can ­disagree and still love each other, ­unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist - James Baldwin

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=73719.msg1830479#msg1830479
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