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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1412668 times)

Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18105 on: January 22, 2017, 07:20:11 pm »

If anything it's easier to hate the nujobs that are too close to my side, because they agree with me on some things so you end up having to split it up along ever more arbitrary lines to make the distinction clear, but yeah, basically when someone starts rallying under a banner of "let's make others behave correctly" rather than "let's make sure others aren't being treated incorrectly" you're going to need your crampons and a safety line because it's going to get slippery from then on.
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Rockphed

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18106 on: January 22, 2017, 07:48:58 pm »

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/1/20/14335268/obamacare-more-popular-than-trump-poll
BTW a FOX News polls found that Obamacare is more popular than Trump. Just a nice irony there.
The real question is what happens when congress guts the ACA and Trump's poorer supporters have to make that choice in real life.  Do I like Trump, or did I like that health insurance I used to have...

The reason many of Trump's poorer supporters don't like Obamacare is because it made them choose between expensive & bad health insurance and paying for other things in their budget.  And then, if they chose the latter, they got fined.  Sure, it made it "easier" to buy health insurance, but it also screwed up lots of people's coverage and made things more expensive.
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martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18107 on: January 22, 2017, 07:49:34 pm »

Oh boy, my newspaper's cartoonist did another Trump cartoon.
http://www.volkskrant.nl/foto/bas-van-der-schot~p4368443/4312034/
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18108 on: January 22, 2017, 08:53:56 pm »

And is this not also equally true of the Democratic Party?
Nah. The rest of the bit about not tarring and whatnot was fine, but there's been a fair bit of a difference between what the two parties have been doing in the areas they have substantial control and the rough composition of how those groups you mentioned pan out in terms of saturation and influence. Oddly enough, when one party's "get re-elected" pretty much explicitly involves sabotaging the government and the other one's doesn't, behavior and whatnot between them end up differing here and there. Also kinda' seems like dem voters are a bit more willing to lynch their politicians when they fuck up, too, for what that's worth, which keeps 'em a lil' more on their toes so far as "will do anything" goes.

It's particularly a sentiment of concern considering some sizable chunk of what's been letting the GOP fuck this country pretty consistently and with vigor for the last few decades is people buying the bullshit statement that the two parties actually are interchangeable and you're going to get more or less the same out of a rep as you will a dem, or that either is about as likely to be on the up and up as the other. It's closer to an accurate statement as you get closer to local level, but even then it's pretty damn sketchy in practice. You do get decent republicans that are trying to do the whole governance and whatnot thing (and seriously, those folks probably need some love, particularly if they're telling the rest of their party('s ethos) to sod off in the process), but it tends to be pretty strongly in spite of their party rather than because of it. Dems might not manage the reverse, but they at least come closer to being neither in spite nor because :-\
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #18109 on: January 22, 2017, 09:13:54 pm »

The best quote I saw was "Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line."
Relevant blast from the pre-Trumpening past.
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misko27

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18110 on: January 22, 2017, 10:26:29 pm »

But they're powerful because they play the long game.  Why impeach him, if they can use him to take the blame?  It won't (look like) the Republicans who destroy health care, enrich the rich, and destroy the middle class...  Trump was the president, and they are on record as being against him tooth and nail.  A perfect scapegoat.

No matter that it's Congress that passes legislation.  Even when people understand that, the President gets credit because he's the one big celebrity.  The face of government.
That's a very risky game to play if that is their plan. If voter's do decide that they are responsible for Trump, they lose badly. And if Trump crashes out in 2020, they lose state offices just when redistricting starts (granted, they are lucky that redistricting isn't in 2018 instead, because that would utterly crush them). And if that happens, they find themselves locked out of state offices for a decade or more.They could undo everything they gained in 2010 if this goes south. All that needs to happen is that the people who supported Trump get angry. It's quite an interesting situation frankly. A Trump-Republican war would sink the party electorally, because even if one side wins decisively it could make the losers deeply bitter.

In fact, all we really need to show how bad their situation is that Trump eventually decides to start taking out his frustration on his party. That's all we need. As soon as Trump decides that his problems (real or imagined) are the fault of Congressional Republicans, he is going to berate them, and publicly. If they let him do it they open themselves up to primary challenges, so they have to push back somehow. So as soon as the divide forms, Congressional Republicans are between a rock and a hard place. The fact is that the Republicans are going to have problems with Trump. Straight up. There are enough of them that revoked their support, and enough in swing districts, to consistently block the chamber. What will determine the next few years is "How will the leadership respond? Will they pressure the anti-Trump delegation, and how far are they willing to go to support someone who they don't like and who doesn't like them? And how will the rank-and-file respond? And how will Trump/Democrats/the media respond?"

Another thing I would be scared of as Trump is pissing off the media too much. The media can take an endless licking, but if he starts restricting them from things and cuts into their profit, he'll lose what goodwill he has left. That didn't matter much before, but Trump is President now: he will have far, far more things he'll want to keep quiet from now on, and having the media's cooperation is very important for that. Conversely, if he pisses them off too much and totally restricts them, they have nothing to lose by pissing him off further.
The reason many of Trump's poorer supporters don't like Obamacare is because it made them choose between expensive & bad health insurance and paying for other things in their budget.  And then, if they chose the latter, they got fined.  Sure, it made it "easier" to buy health insurance, but it also screwed up lots of people's coverage and made things more expensive.
Well, the "good" news is we're soon going to be able to rebuild it from the ground up, because it looks like Trump's going to gut it from what I hear.
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Rolan7

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18111 on: January 22, 2017, 10:51:45 pm »

But they're powerful because they play the long game.  Why impeach him, if they can use him to take the blame?  It won't (look like) the Republicans who destroy health care, enrich the rich, and destroy the middle class...  Trump was the president, and they are on record as being against him tooth and nail.  A perfect scapegoat.

No matter that it's Congress that passes legislation.  Even when people understand that, the President gets credit because he's the one big celebrity.  The face of government.
That's a very risky game to play if that is their plan. If voters do decide that they are responsible for Trump, they lose badly. And if Trump crashes out in 2020, they lose state offices just when redistricting starts (granted, they are lucky that redistricting isn't in 2018 instead, because that would utterly crush them). And if that happens, they find themselves locked out of state offices for a decade or more.They could undo everything they gained in 2010 if this goes south. All that needs to happen is that the people who supported Trump get angry. It's quite an interesting situation frankly. A Trump-Republican war would sink the party electorally, because even if one side wins decisively it could make the losers deeply bitter.
I agree it'll be interesting.  I didn't mean to imply they let him win the primary, they fought him tooth and nail there.  And later, they can point to that and say "See?  We tried to stop him!  We tried to save you!"  The fact that they gave him tacit support after he won is easily excused and swept aside, compared to the zeal with which they attacked him earlier.
In fact, all we really need to show how bad their situation is that Trump eventually decides to start taking out his frustration on his party. That's all we need. As soon as Trump decides that his problems (real or imagined) are the fault of Congressional Republicans, he is going to berate them, and publicly. If they let him do it they open themselves up to primary challenges, so they have to push back somehow. So as soon as the divide forms, Congressional Republicans are between a rock and a hard place. The fact is that the Republicans are going to have problems with Trump. Straight up. There are enough of them that revoked their support, and enough in swing districts, to consistently block the chamber. What will determine the next few years is "How will the leadership respond? Will they pressure the anti-Trump delegation, and how far are they willing to go to support someone who they don't like and who doesn't like them? And how will the rank-and-file respond? And how will Trump/Democrats/the media respond?"
Interesting, and maaaybe.  But while he styles himself as a populist, he failed to get a popular mandate.  By a lot, if you consider the pathetic turnout (Clinton, I'll admit, also had awful turnout).
Maybe it depends on his policies.  Will he have already alienated his supporters in 2 years?  Even if they're with him, they're only part of the Republican base.  He did win a simple majority of the primary, but that's because most opponents dropped out.  Playing the long game, party unity.

I think people who wanted Cruz or Giuliani, but voted the Republican ticket as always, aren't going to be impressed when Trump starts slinging mud at their local Republican candidates
Another thing I would be scared of as Trump is pissing off the media too much. The media can take an endless licking, but if he starts restricting them from things and cuts into their profit, he'll lose what goodwill he has left. That didn't matter much before, but Trump is President now: he will have far, far more things he'll want to keep quiet from now on, and having the media's cooperation is very important for that. Conversely, if he pisses them off too much and totally restricts them, they have nothing to lose by pissing him off further.
Eh, even I'll admit that media coverage of him was mostly negative - in intention, at least.  By covering every juicy scandal, they bizarrely bolstered his campaign.  They already hate him, generally, it's just that people love him when the "establishment" attacks him.
They'd have to stop covering him if they actually wanted to hurt him, and you can't really avoid covering the president.
The reason many of Trump's poorer supporters don't like Obamacare is because it made them choose between expensive & bad health insurance and paying for other things in their budget.  And then, if they chose the latter, they got fined.  Sure, it made it "easier" to buy health insurance, but it also screwed up lots of people's coverage and made things more expensive.
Well, the "good" news is we're soon going to be able to rebuild it from the ground up, because it looks like Trump's going to gut it from what I hear.
Wasn't there a provision for the poor in there, that waived the fine?  *checks*  Yeah:
http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-mandate-exemption-penalty/  (click through the intermediary page)
Basically, if you make under 10K a year or the healthcare would be 8% of your budget, you're exempt.
So it's not like people were going into debt from these fines...

But yeah, doesn't matter anymore.  Just when I could actually use it, too, I'm at the whims of the megacorps.  Not to mention all the protections regarding pre-existing conditions etc!
Bleh.
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18112 on: January 23, 2017, 12:20:41 am »

The thing with Trump as a Populist... is...

If people aren't on his side... it only means that there are even more people being silenced.
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Amperzand

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LoSboccacc

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18114 on: January 23, 2017, 02:05:23 am »

Remove neoliberalism REMOVE NEOLIBERALISM


Yup. in Europe we've known, for a couple millennia now, that liberism is wonderful only when applied to the private sector and infrastructure+services need to be part of the res publica.

Sadly we've managed to import the worst part of the American culture and grew a spineless generation only caring about consumerism and moral relativism. Italy&Germany more than other places in Europe.

Gee, I wonder why.
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18115 on: January 23, 2017, 02:11:12 am »

Gee, I wonder why.
Backlash from damn filthy commies insisting on everything being in governmental control, stoicism and moral objectivism, I'd wager.
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misko27

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18116 on: January 23, 2017, 04:27:22 am »

Remove neoliberalism REMOVE NEOLIBERALISM


Yup. in Europe we've known, for a couple millennia now...
I'm going to do something uncharacteristic and allow you to correct your statement, without pouncing on you.

So, again: Who is this "we", and how long ago did they start knowing whatever it is that they know?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 04:29:21 am by misko27 »
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LoSboccacc

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18117 on: January 23, 2017, 04:52:59 am »

Remove neoliberalism REMOVE NEOLIBERALISM


Yup. in Europe we've known, for a couple millennia now...
I'm going to do something uncharacteristic and allow you to correct your statement, without pouncing on you.

So, again: Who is this "we", and how long ago did they start knowing whatever it is that they know?

Romans. You know, pretty big back then. Had clear ideas on infrastructure vs private ownership. Had some faults as well, but still. Most Europeans had something to do with them at some point and influenced quite a lot the idea of state and laws.
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Phmcw

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18118 on: January 23, 2017, 05:43:25 am »

From what I could see, when Obama's administration was trying to implement health care reform or any kind of left wing measure that he promised in his campaign, he was a like "let's implement a watered-down version of the republican proposal. We need conciliation above anything else."

When it was about pushing for the intervention in Lybia and Syria against the congress opinion he was like "GRAB THEM BY THE PUSSY!!!".


I, for one, think that if he had done the opposite, refrained from being an hawk and pushed vigorously for left wing reforms, the democrat candidate would have been in a much better spot.
I know that you don't read the alt-right websites, but "no more wars" and "no more support to the Saudi" was a pretty big talking point there.
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Rolan7

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0
« Reply #18119 on: January 23, 2017, 05:52:48 am »

He barely got through a weakened version of the health care Romney proposed, and now it's going away.  But he should have gone farther?

He deployed the military to liberate people/introduce democracy, like Republicans always scream for, yet he went too far?
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