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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1389126 times)

Luke_The_Hungry

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17655 on: January 17, 2017, 10:04:50 pm »

How is it shitty? care to put your money where your mouth is rather than making vague statement about why it fails then making typical right wing tongue wagging?
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17656 on: January 17, 2017, 10:11:43 pm »

How is it shitty? care to put your money where your mouth is rather than making vague statement about why it fails then making typical right wing tongue wagging?
Net wealth would account for stuff like debt, which would put the not-insignificant number of Americans as the poorest people in the world, below Africans and Chinese peasants living on 1$ per day, simply because they don't have one.
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Strife26

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17657 on: January 17, 2017, 10:14:36 pm »

How is it shitty? care to put your money where your mouth is rather than making vague statement about why it fails then making typical right wing tongue wagging?

Yeah, no problemo. I'll continue to spend my money on what I deem is suitable charity.



Edit: If you're talking specifically about the wealth distribution question, then a few seconds on wikipedia or google would serve you in good stead. Poverty has fallen amazingly in the past decades. The number of people living below the global poverty line shrinks and shrinks and shrinks. Life's been getting better for people, not worse, no matter what the prevailing belief is.
http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2015/10/04/world-bank-forecasts-global-poverty-to-fall-below-10-for-first-time-major-hurdles-remain-in-goal-to-end-poverty-by-2030
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/01/16/oxfams-annual-davos-whining-8-people-have-more-wealth-than-the-bottom-50-of-all-humans/#3c24e978310f
« Last Edit: January 17, 2017, 10:37:15 pm by Strife26 »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17658 on: January 17, 2017, 11:36:57 pm »

Ye, mind you, the whole methology behind the lolstudy that said around 8 of the richest people on earth hold the equivalent weath to half of the world's pop is kiiiiiiinda, like, shitty? I need to sleep cause I have to get shit done tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure its already being called out left and right already.

Also, sorry, no universal income economic utopia until post scarcity societies are a thing, if they ever actualy become a thing, that is. Until then, all you get are temporary welfare states with rollercoaster economies that dump the costs of the previous generation's economic safety on the backs of the younger generation (or immigrants, if you follow the EU's model, lel).
EU's model is an open door, it does not select for well educated and productive young citizens, thus it actually increases the burden lmao

Vilanat

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17659 on: January 18, 2017, 04:05:44 am »

And there you have it, a solid writeup on why communism a specific, closed religious enclave which is, by design, not self-sufficient does not work in the real world has demographic problems, but provides a comfortable lifestyle for everyone in it.

Because people are people. Sad, but true.

Just had to adjust that a little bit there.

Meanwhile capitalism gives eight people the same wealth as 3.5 billion.

We are, as i said, highly secluar like most other communities such as mine throughout Israel (there is a minority of religious communities, but they are not orthodox or conservatives). don't forget our way of life was inspired by ideas whose author was atehist/militanty atheist.

We are also financially self sufficient and if we decide, we can might even become mostly self sufficient. our agriculture industry can feed well over a thousand people through our cows farms, chickens farms and crop fields. we even pump our own water and generate a portion of our electricity through solar panels and methane gas from the cows manure.

Also, the same social/demographic problems are extremely common throughout most other Kibbutzes in Israel and from anecdotal discussions, also in the world (Talked with people from Holland and Spain who lives in similar communities and which expressed similar problems).

This kind of system provides for a better average. extremely unaccurately and generally speaking (because the thershold for social problems is actually much lower), the social problems starts to arise when the median income cannot finance the average expenses, even though the average income still does. the financial problems arise when later generations who are not driven enough to bring in new businesses or work in a high paying job are becoming a burden because they bring kids of their own which they wouldn't have been able to finance outside of this system.
The motto for such a way of life is often being summarize as: "You give as much as you can and recieve as much as you need", our cynical addition is "Which creates lazy, needy people".

I think that such a system can't work on a large scale. one of the things that drives people to go up in the morning and efficiently work on a job they don't like is the social implications for not doing so. in smaller communities, people who don't do so are visible to the community and are being looked down upon, but in a larger scale, especially a privacy oriented country like the U.S, there would be no social implications for those who just cruise by the day and their output is just as required and not beyond, which is the real "cancer". you might say that could be handled in the workplace itself, but what happens when more than a few does that? what happens when those more than a few are the only ones willing to work at that place? without financial incentives, few people would be willing to work in jobs they don't like. also. the people who are high earners grow up and intimately live with the low earners, so they have a personal bond which enables them to live lower than their capabilities. a high earner who doesn't even superficially know low earners will be far more reluctant to share his income.

Besides, the American population is, i dare say, programmed against socialism. while i can't say my anecdotal experience from the U.S can be considered reflective, the people i met while there were completely shocked by the idea of working and not getting paid a wage and couldn't accept it even theoretically. even people who were clearly not on the winning side of capitalism couldn't understand the benefits. Western Europe actually have a far better chance in succeeding in a large scale "communism", both because of the free/affordable higher education and because they are more socially aware. it would still require some sort of social incentive to encourage individuals to aspire forward though.
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TempAcc

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17660 on: January 18, 2017, 07:34:29 am »

How is it shitty? care to put your money where your mouth is rather than making vague statement about why it fails then making typical right wing tongue wagging?

Hey, tell that to the Time Magazine and the director of Yale's Institution for Social and Policy Studies

Oxfam, the guys who presented the ~bombastic~ study that is trending on every social network atm, uses the metholody Sergarr made reference to, the same methodology that can make sub saharan african subsistence farmer seem more wealthy than you average middle class college attending american. Plus, the data sample used in the study takes into account a recent period that has been very favourable for the very rich, but much less so for the average joe (stocks going to a rollercoaster trip, jobs disappearing due to automation and other trends, huge injection of big chinese money into the global market, etc).

Sure, the top 1% is pretty disgustingly rich, but the average income has continually risen worldwide in the last decades, a trend that has yet to change, so if you take studies such as these at face value, you'll be easily misled into thinking we live in feudal europe.

The fact said study is also being used to lure people into donating money to one thing or another and ending public subsidies to non profit NGO is specially shady. It would kill a large part of the third sector and thus, fuck up a whole lot of poor people's lives.

Lemme tell you something a whole ton of people don't seem to get: the problem of the world isn't inequality, its poverty. I don't care if my income is a universe away from Bill Gates, as long as I can feed and clothe myself, have decent housing, have access to decent education and have some decent leisure time, IE overall be able to enjoy all my human rights to its full extent. The problem is when people don't have that. This is why I view practically all those fancy wealth distribution diatribes (that mysteriously never seem to touch some people) with suspicion and reservation.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 08:17:31 am by TempAcc »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17661 on: January 18, 2017, 08:14:53 am »

Careful talking about self-sufficiency Vilanat, Americans see that as dangerous

martinuzz

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17662 on: January 18, 2017, 08:31:00 am »

Careful talking about self-sufficiency Vilanat, Americans see that as dangerous
Wut? Compared to Europe, or at least the Netherlands, the US is self-sufficiency paradise. If I want to live in a van in the US, forage some berries and catch a fish for food, I can (as long as I make sure to stay away from private property). If I do that in the Netherlands, I'll get fined for wildcamping, fined for wild-foraging and fined for fishing without a permit, and arrested for making a cooking fire in the open.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17663 on: January 18, 2017, 08:36:24 am »

You can get fined for all those things in America too. Maybe not the cooking fire? But probably.

It would probably be easier to evade the authorities while doing those things in America (compared to the Netherlands), but you'd still be breaking the law.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17664 on: January 18, 2017, 09:05:33 am »

Careful talking about self-sufficiency Vilanat, Americans see that as dangerous

You speak sarcasm, no we don't.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17665 on: January 18, 2017, 09:31:38 am »

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2017/01/16/oxfams-annual-davos-whining-8-people-have-more-wealth-than-the-bottom-50-of-all-humans/#3c24e978310f

The only problem with citing Tim Worstall as an authority on the matter is that his entire career is about attacking this sort of stuff. "Capitalism is fine, there's no such thing as inequality, and even if there is, it's probably a good thing" because rich people create all the value, and they're generous enough to let us have the scraps. It's bullshit.

Basically anything that says anything negative about capitalism in any sense, you have Tim Worstall acting like a smug bastard going 110% Boosterism "Hooray for capitalism". The problem with viewing him as a journalist is that he has a clearly desired end-point (hooray for capitalism) and then he works backwards from his conclusion to the issue the article is about, rather than working forward in an objective overview of the available data. It's no different with Tim Worstall and his fixation on any criticism of capitalism being being bunk vs feminist sites which blame any and ever problem on "the patriarchy". One-note commentators are automatically suspect.

The thing is, we have a specific set of rules in e.g. America for how the economic system works. It's definitely not a given that the current system is the optimal system. Inequality is actually bad for economic growth:
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21597931-up-point-redistributing-income-fight-inequality-can-lift-growth-inequality
Quote
Inequality is more closely correlated with low growth. A high Gini for net income, after redistribution, corresponds to slower growth in income per person. A rise of 5 Gini points (moving from the level in America to that in Gabon, for instance) knocks half a percentage point off average annual growth. And holding redistribution constant, a one-point rise in the Gini raises the risk an expansion ends in a given year by six percentage points. Redistribution that reduces inequality might therefore boost growth.

If redistribution is benign, that could be because it substitutes for shaky borrowing. In their 2011 paper Messrs Berg and Ostry note that more unequal societies do poorly on social indicators such as educational attainment, even after controlling for income levels. This suggests that households with lower incomes struggle to finance investments in education. In a recent paper Barry Cynamon of the Federal Reserve Bank of St Louis and Steven Fazzari of Washington University in St Louis reckon most Americans borrowed heavily before 2008 to prop up their consumption. That kept the economy growing—until crisis struck. Sensible redistribution could mean the difference between a healthy growth rate and one that is decidedly subprime.

Basically Tim Worstall's argument falls apart because he conflates incremental reform of a market system, i.e. tweaking the system to be more efficient, with the worst countries on the planet ("You don't want to end up like North Korea"). So he presents things as an either/or choice: laissez-faire capitialism vs a stalinist planned economy. Which is a completely false dichotomy.

And the fact is, high inequality is correlated with low economic growth. The fact about the world's 8 richest people being so rich is actually a sign that vast inequality exists, which is known to harm economic growth. Whether it's the cause or effect is not relevant. And Worstall says "the market" gave us all this growth, but in fact most of the growth in the third world has been by introducing machines for farming and industrialization.

Third-world nations tend to have high growth whether or not they introduced pro-market liberalization. For example, communist Vietnam has 5.4% growth, which has been on average faster and more stable than poster-boy for capitalism Singapore with 3.9% for the last 30 or so years. Another example is Communist Cuba: google Cuba GDP growth and google shows it alongside Dominican Republic, a capitalist nation, and Puerto Rico, an American territory. Cuba's GDP growth beat both of them for the last couple of decades *despite* being commies suffering an economic blockade. If nearby parts of *America* can't economically out-pace *Cuba* (despite constant money being poured in to prop up Puerto Rico), how strong is this "capitalism good" claim?
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 10:17:09 am by Reelya »
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17666 on: January 18, 2017, 11:14:18 am »

Someone calling themselves the US press corps have written an incredibly condescending open letter to Trump.

Such a colossal amount of self-importance is amazing. It's like they are trying to beat the Donald at his own game.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17667 on: January 18, 2017, 11:40:17 am »

Well the thing is, all of that's true. They write the articles, they are the companies that own the publications. They get to say what's in the news, if Trump wants to say that such and such a newspaper isn't getting "access" that's bullshit basically. He's the client, they provide the service, he's the one shutting himself out from getting "access". If you cut the media off from "access" to your side of the story don't be surprised when the other guy gets his side of the story out and you don't. Nothing in that article is condescending, it's just explaining the bottom line without pussyfooting around.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 11:43:30 am by Reelya »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17668 on: January 18, 2017, 12:04:46 pm »

Holy shit.  Obama actually commuted Chelsea Manning's sentence.  She'll be released on May 17th.  I honestly did not think he would do this.  I guess he just had to cowardly allow her to be tortured while he waited until the last few days of his term, so it wouldn't effect his time in office.

And... apparently Assange had recently said he would agree to extradition if this happened?

Link
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17669 on: January 18, 2017, 12:09:07 pm »

Well it will be interesting now for Assange. Perhaps Assange made that promise on the belief that it would happen when hell freezes over. So the ball's in his court. But Assange has a better chance now that Trump is in charge though, seeing as Assange was pretty much in Trump's corner for the whole election.

EDIT: It seems that Assange has backtracked and said that the clemency offered was "unsatisfactory" so he's not going to let himself be extradited after all.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/julian-assange-wikileaks-hand-himself-chelseas-manning-commute-barack-obama-extradition-sweden-a7532706.html
What a complete joke of a human being.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2017, 12:10:57 pm by Reelya »
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