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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1419064 times)

Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17535 on: January 15, 2017, 05:26:03 pm »

But what you're saying now is completely tangential. The point is that when he launched his attack on John Lewis, Trump was aware of all previous rebukes for connecting "burning inner city hell holes" to Black America. But still decided that that was going to be how he attacked a respected black leader.

If you were well known for speaking out against "greedy jewish bankers" and then attacked a Jewish politician by name, while pointing out he hadn't reined in all the greedy bankers in his district, then saying that you were only criticizing bankers and it hadn't crossed your mind that the guy was Jewish, well that wouldn't be very plausible would it?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 05:37:22 pm by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17536 on: January 15, 2017, 05:28:23 pm »

It's also completely possible to respond in a diplomatic way, but Trump chose not to.
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17537 on: January 15, 2017, 05:32:48 pm »

It's also completely possible to respond in a diplomatic way, but Trump chose not to.

It also doesn't help that Trump just of wasted all his benefit of the doubt.

If any of the previous Presidents said this... we would have thought they made a mistake or were being ignorant of his work.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17538 on: January 15, 2017, 05:40:34 pm »

He lost the benefit of the doubt long ago when it comes to Race.
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hector13

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17539 on: January 15, 2017, 05:47:42 pm »

His speech announcing he was running was about race.

All dem drug dealing, rapist, murdering Mexicans getting sent over, man.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17540 on: January 15, 2017, 06:12:49 pm »

The real irony with that type of rhetoric is that economic refugees from friendly nations are usually the ones labeled criminals, and sent back, while actual criminals fleeing from hostile nations (Cuba) get welcomed in as refugees fleeing tyranny.

There were a bunch of cases like this where they welcomed all sorts of creepy types from Cuba no matter what, because it's good propaganda and plays well with the Cuban Exile vote in the important swing state of Florida, while if you're a refugee from Haiti (and you really want to get out of that place) then you're probably going to be arrested and sent back. Cubans really got the red carpet.

Strife26

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17541 on: January 15, 2017, 08:34:58 pm »

Cuba wasn't accepting deportations generally and the days of accepting Cuban refugees got shitcanned by President Obama just a bit ago anyway.
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17542 on: January 15, 2017, 08:37:56 pm »

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17543 on: January 15, 2017, 08:47:17 pm »

Funnily enough and also terrifyingly, I think nuclear arms is Trump's most revised issue. First he wants America to have all the nukes, just the best nukes. Then he thinks not only should we have nukes, but all of our allies and all of our "allies" should have nukes so we don't have to defend them. Then we should nuke ISIS until the desert glows, and he's asking his military advisors if he really has to abstain from using them. Then nukes should be reduced.

What's next, is Trump going to unfurl a peace symbol banner over the White House and demand the immediate end of America's flirtation with death by nuclear fire?
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hector13

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17544 on: January 15, 2017, 08:47:58 pm »

The link in that article to where he apparently says he wants less nuclear weapons links to him saying he wants more, though arguably because he wants less.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17545 on: January 15, 2017, 08:56:45 pm »

But what you're saying now is completely tangential. The point is that when he launched his attack on John Lewis, Trump was aware of all previous rebukes for connecting "burning inner city hell holes" to Black America. But still decided that that was going to be how he attacked a respected black leader.

If you were well known for speaking out against "greedy jewish bankers" and then attacked a Jewish politician by name, while pointing out he hadn't reined in all the greedy bankers in his district, then saying that you were only criticizing bankers and it hadn't crossed your mind that the guy was Jewish, well that wouldn't be very plausible would it?
What does it have to do with plausible? You're saying that he's racist for doing something even though it could be perceived as racist, whereas originally you were saying he was racist because he was wrong and just assumed it would be terrible because it's a black congressman. Those are very different arguments.

The whole reason I got involved in this was because you were saying he only called it crime-infested because he was retaliating against a black congressman and using incorrect statistics, whereas my point was that he's repeatedly talked about inner cities being crime infested and that if you look at the actual statistics for the county, as well as the census reports, you'll see that that descriptor is not inaccurate beyond being the usual hyperbole Trump uses in every sentence.
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Rolan7

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17546 on: January 15, 2017, 08:58:08 pm »

Funnily enough and also terrifyingly, I think nuclear arms is Trump's most revised issue. First he wants America to have all the nukes, just the best nukes. Then he thinks not only should we have nukes, but all of our allies and all of our "allies" should have nukes so we don't have to defend them. Then we should nuke ISIS until the desert glows, and he's asking his military advisors if he really has to abstain from using them. Then nukes should be reduced.

What's next, is Trump going to unfurl a peace symbol banner over the White House and demand the immediate end of America's flirtation with death by nuclear fire?
He also says whatever's convenient over gay rights (low priority honestly) but also like... Literally everything else.  Even the wall.  Even immigrants.

If this was on the 2D left-right libertarian-conservative 2D grid, I'd be invoking old well-tread arguments and we could refine them through discourse.
This guy is *literally* nothing, stuff and air.  I don't think he ever meant to win.  Weren't no surprise when he passed authority over to his CEO "flunkies", IE contacts who are probably way shrewder than him.
Since he still refuses to show us whether or not he's any more successful than the AVERAGE PERSON.  He was bequeathed a huge lead, and it's literally about 50-50 whether he's any better than the average.

We're in fresh territory, now, and I hope it turns out well.  I mean that...  I hope.  A little.  But he's already made enough horrifying choices.

You can argue the details all you want (and certain liberals, particularly in this thread, are being really dumb or even deliberately misunderstanding to score points).

But fact is, we're in for some scary uncertain times.  I wish everyone the best.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17547 on: January 15, 2017, 08:59:04 pm »

Trump's first UK post-election interview: NATO is obsolete and "needs reform", Britain leaving EU is "smart", and "nuclear weapons should be way down and reduced very substantially".

It's like he wants to be seen as a Russian agent!

Nuclear reduction is something the US and Russia have been doing for decades and 'saying NATO is obsolete' is something he has been saying throughout the campaign.

He's also said that he'll trust Merkel and Putin equally (not sure if equally per se) at first and see how that goes, might not last long. So, maybe he's hedging on the possibility of relations with Putin souring quickly, or maybe Merkel, we'd have to see.

Funnily enough and also terrifyingly, I think nuclear arms is Trump's most revised issue. First he wants America to have all the nukes, just the best nukes. Then he thinks not only should we have nukes, but all of our allies and all of our "allies" should have nukes so we don't have to defend them. Then we should nuke ISIS until the desert glows, and he's asking his military advisors if he really has to abstain from using them. Then nukes should be reduced.

What's next, is Trump going to unfurl a peace symbol banner over the White House and demand the immediate end of America's flirtation with death by nuclear fire?
The link in that article to where he apparently says he wants less nuclear weapons links to him saying he wants more, though arguably because he wants less.

Yeah, he's been massively fluid on that, which he won't be able to do when he actually starts.
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17548 on: January 15, 2017, 09:09:34 pm »

What does it have to do with plausible? You're saying that he's racist for doing something even though it could be perceived as racist, whereas originally you were saying he was racist because he was wrong and just assumed it would be terrible because it's a black congressman. Those are very different arguments.

The whole reason I got involved in this was because you were saying he only called it crime-infested because he was retaliating against a black congressman and using incorrect statistics, whereas my point was that he's repeatedly talked about inner cities being crime infested and that if you look at the actual statistics for the county, as well as the census reports, you'll see that that descriptor is not inaccurate beyond being the usual hyperbole Trump uses in every sentence.
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whereas my point was that he's repeatedly talked about inner cities being crime infested

Well he already had a history of making that a race issue well before this occurred. Shown by the link I provided which mentioned the connection that people had already made over 3 months ago.

And the point wasn't that he was racist because he was wrong. It was that because it was a black man that he was attacking, he fell back on a narrative that he'd previously and repeatedly used with racial connections, regardless of whether that had anything to do with the facts. If there was a single incident where he critiques a white opponent using the same logic as this then you might have a point. But the fact is so far he had a reputation for making a connection between inner-city decay and black people, continuously. so when he makes a connection between a black leader and inner-city decay, then it's takes a bit of stretching not to see that as the same race connection he constantly made during the election.

And the point you made that he "didn't care about the rebukes" he'd received for connecting black people to urban decay: Whether he "cared" is irrelevant. His connection between "inner city" and "black crime" in his speeches was well known and widely talked about. So he knew people were picking up on it.

So when he launches a personal tirade against a black leader using the exact same language, it's not believable to say that the race of the person he was attacking never entered his mind when writing that. He would at least have had to be aware of how other people would make those connections about what he wrote.

You know, just google "trump inner city" and 10/10 links on the first page are about Trump equating urban decay with black people or talking to black people about it. Basically any time he mentioned "inner city" in a speech, he mentioned black people within the next 1-2 sentences.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/10/trump-african-american-inner-city/503744/
https://www.thenation.com/article/donald-trumps-imaginary-inner-cities/
« Last Edit: January 15, 2017, 09:54:42 pm by Reelya »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: 2016, Version 2.0
« Reply #17549 on: January 15, 2017, 09:12:11 pm »

He also says whatever's convenient over gay rights (low priority honestly) but also like... Literally everything else.  Even the wall.  Even immigrants.

If this was on the 2D left-right libertarian-conservative 2D grid, I'd be invoking old well-tread arguments and we could refine them through discourse.
This guy is *literally* nothing, stuff and air.
Back during the primaries, Nate Beryllium made a graph that charted all the Republican candidates on his Five-Ring Circus interpretation of the Republican party's factions, and while he put Trump closest to the the Tea Party ring he also put him entirely outside the graph in empty space. Oddly prescient, now.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
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