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[Reelya]

It's in the general wikipedia article on Gladio, sorry I thought I'd already linked it, because it's a historical topic so the details are already pretty well established.

The source was a book written by that general about Gladio.

Also interesting: there was an independent covert army in Switzerland for the same purposes, the Swiss government investigated that and found no connections at all with the CIA, but close contacts with MI6.

[Phmcw]

It's in the general wikipedia article on Gladio, sorry I thought I'd already linked it, because it's a historical topic so the details are already pretty well established.

The source was a book written by that general about Gladio.

Also interesting: there was an independent covert army in Switzerland for the same purposes, the Swiss government investigated that and found no connections at all with the CIA, but close contacts with MI6.

Your sources are literally Gladios operatives... and it's not exactly hard to see that what link them all is being on the very far rights.
And yeah, those networks are suspected of having carried out bombing and political murders, radicalization actions on left-wing groups and false flag attacks, of course we will never know for sure since they are SECRET services, and aren't supposed to be amateurs. Documents "proving" their involvement have surfaced, but the USA now claim that they are forgeries.


Anyway, it remain that the US trained, armed and funded far right groups in Europe. Spied on European politicians, lied to the world on Sadam Hussein's involvement in 9-11 and new WMD programs, supplies al-nursa (al quaida) in Syria, fund oppositions groups in Russia, .... and that their tantrum over genuine e-mails leaked to their own population is ridiculous.

[hector13]

When those e-mails were alleged to have been hacked by foreign government sponsored actors in an effort to influence the results of a very recent election, then yes, I think they have a reason to be nonplussed, irrespective of the activities they've undertaken in the past that may have undermined the sovereignty of another nation.

[PTTG??]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This really brightened up my day. The Brits, French, Austrians, Italians and Russians for centuries wondered how it was possible to contain Germany, culminating in the destruction wrought upon it post WWI that created the conditions ripe for Naziism. Understanding the economic plight of the angry German voter resulted in the modern Germany that is simultaneously the wealthiest in Europe and the most liberal in Europe. Defeating a wartime enemy and defeating an idea are both different, difficult things, going full Mongol only works if you're truly committed to going full Mongol

Are you advocating that we kill the Republican leadership, split Michigan with Canada for twenty years, and then reconstruct it?

[TempAcc]

Me thinks going full mongol isn't exactly a great option, considering the general combat abilities of the average democrat vs the general combat abilities of the average republican. Good luck sending hordes of liberal arts college protesters vs people with multiple ARs under their beds.

[LoSboccacc]

I fail to see a parallel, at most the current situation is reminiscent of the early '20s America.

[smjjames]

Obama promised Russia that he will take measures to punish Russia for meddling with the US elections.
"I think there is no doubt, that when a foreign nation tries to influence the integrity of our elections, we need to take action... And we will. In a time and place of our choosing. Some of it may be made public, some of it may not. Mister Putin known what my stance on this is, I have spoken to him directly about it."


So if anytime soon you see a Russian nuclear plant go Tsjernobyl, it's probably Obama's counterhacking team.

Makes me think of when NK did those hacking sheneinighans on Sony and Obama did retaliation, and then RIGHT after he said he would do that, BAM, NKs sole internet connection to the outside world got disrupted (physically or not, I don't know). Then people were like "Was it the US that did that?!?!?" and Obama was like "I/we can neither confirm nor deny.". Though I don't remember whether he actually said anything, but that was essentially the message.

Though a retaliation to the whole election stuff would have to go further than that. I seriously doubt that Obama wants to induce another Chernobyl though.

Nah, Obama would do nothing. "time and place of our choosing" is basically: let me stall just enough time to kick it down the road and blame Trump for all of this.

Or, do the retaliation right on inauguration day, leaving the Trump adminstration holding the bag and facing whatever rebound comes from that. Sounds pretty plausible.

Also, what does Operation Gladio have anything to do with current events? I'm confused by phmcw invoking a now defunct group. Other than maybe the CIA's involvement, but then, our intelligence services did lots of shitty stuff in the name of combatting Communism, so, you could replace Gladio with lots of other stuff.

[martinuzz]

The Chinese captured an unmanned submarine drone, right under the nose of the research vessel USNS Bowditch, which was about to haul it in.
The US government has protested and demands the Chinese return the drone.
According to the US is was doing scientific research in international waters. China however doesn't see the waters as international (they claim nearly the entire South-Chinese Sea, which is not acknowledged by international community.

[Phmcw]

Also, what does Operation Gladio have anything to do with current events? I'm confused by phmcw invoking a now defunct group. Other than maybe the CIA's involvement, but then, our intelligence services did lots of shitty stuff in the name of combating Communism, so, you could replace Gladio with lots of other stuff.

Ok I'm not being clear : this "hack" is just taking message from a private mail server and disclosing it untouched to a NGO that then diffused it.
I fail to see the big deal or evil deeds. If tomorrow the guardian publish Putin's communication with his ministers, I wouldn't be shocked either. If there are evidence of corruption then it's even better.

Wait, do you think we could get governement to leak all the dirt they have on each others? This could be juicy!

[smjjames]

The Chinese captured an unmanned submarine drone, right under the nose of the research vessel USNS Bowditch, which was about to haul it in.
The US government has protested and demands the Chinese return the drone.
According to the US is was doing scientific research in international waters. China however doesn't see the waters as international (they claim nearly the entire South-Chinese Sea, which is not acknowledged by international community.

An actual link: http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/16/politics/chinese-warship-underwater-drone-stolen/index.html

Also, what does Operation Gladio have anything to do with current events? I'm confused by phmcw invoking a now defunct group. Other than maybe the CIA's involvement, but then, our intelligence services did lots of shitty stuff in the name of combating Communism, so, you could replace Gladio with lots of other stuff.

Ok I'm not being clear : this "hack" is just taking message from a private mail server and disclosing it untouched to a ONG that then diffused it.
I fail to see the big deal or evil deeds. If tomorrow the guardian publish Putin's communication with his ministers, I wouldn't be shocked either. If there are evidence of corruption then it's even better.

Wait, do you think we could get governement to leak all the dirt they have on each others? This could be juicy!

What does Operation Gladio have to do with anything? That's what I'm confused about. Why were you invoking it?

The Chinese captured an unmanned submarine drone, right under the nose of the research vessel USNS Bowditch, which was about to haul it in.
The US government has protested and demands the Chinese return the drone.
According to the US is was doing scientific research in international waters. China however doesn't see the waters as international (they claim nearly the entire South-Chinese Sea, which is not acknowledged by international community.

An actual link: http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/16/politics/chinese-warship-underwater-drone-stolen/index.html

The Guardian article with somewhat further information: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/16/china-seizes-us-underwater-drone-south-china-sea

[martinuzz]

The obvious reaction would be to seize a certain 7 islands in international waters and tell China it can have them back if they give back the drone.

Makes me wonder how international law regards artificial islands. As territory, or as a maritime object?

[Lord Shonus]

Also amusingly, in the voting recount led by Jill Stein in an effort to win crucial states, Trump increased his votecount as it was revealed officials accidentally gave Clinton 22,748 more votes than she actually got.

Learn to read. 22,748 was Trump's final margin of victory, with the recount assigning 131 additional votes to him. This trivial sum is easily explained as minor human error that didn't get caught because the election was called for (as in, he had a significant enough lead that rechecking the ballots was considered unnecessary) Trump.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The UN Law of the Sea treaty considers artificial islands to be the property of the nation that built them if they are beyond territorial waters, and the property of the coast holder if within them. They are not seen as forming jurisdiction of their own.

On the other hand, I once used the Law of the Sea treaty to justify human conquest of the galaxy, so you can guess how specific these agreements are.

[smjjames]

The obvious reaction would be to seize a certain 7 islands in international waters and tell China it can have them back if they give back the drone.

Makes me wonder how international law regards artificial islands. As territory, or as a maritime object?

http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agreements/texts/unclos/part5.htm

Part 8 of article 60: Artificial islands, installations and structures do not possess the status of islands. They have no territorial sea of their own, and their presence does not affect the delimitation of the territorial sea, the exclusive economic zone or the continental shelf.

So, no, international law does not recognize the Chinese artificial islands. It's the same logic by that territory doesn't increase when an oil rig is built.

Ninja'd while I looked up the actual thing.

The UN Law of the Sea treaty considers artificial islands to be the property of the nation that built them if they are beyond territorial waters, and the property of the coast holder if within them. They are not seen as forming jurisdiction of their own.

On the other hand, I once used the Law of the Sea treaty to justify human conquest of the galaxy, so you can guess how specific these agreements are.

The issue isn't so much that they built them in the first place, it's that the Chinese are using them to claim the South China Sea, which is also claimed and accessed by several other nations. It amounts to an aquatic landgrab.

[martinuzz]

* martinuzz quickly destroys all evidence of half of the Netherlands being created out of thin air the sea.