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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1412555 times)

Culise

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14400 on: November 30, 2016, 02:22:17 pm »

on municipal broadband,

the reason we dont see it like wildfire, is because of franchise agreements. it isnt sso much "agreed not to compete", as it is "city gave exclusive use of the easments, and now the incumbent wont share for competing services, and actively sues for breach of contract when a city tries to run new cable on said easment."
There's also set-up costs.  Even in places without franchise agreements, the set-up costs of setting up a parallel cable infrastructure to compete for the reduced share of a given market are frequently more than the market is really worth, at least compared to other investment opportunities or (to be needlessly cynical) the senior shareholders' payouts.  Google Fiber, for example, has bypassed both these easements and a significant portion of the initial costs by running their lines over the utility lines rather than underground, as is more conventional, which is why they're not quite playing the same game. 
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14401 on: November 30, 2016, 02:28:19 pm »

on municipal broadband,

the reason we dont see it like wildfire, is because of franchise agreements. it isnt sso much "agreed not to compete", as it is "city gave exclusive use of the easments, and now the incumbent wont share for competing services, and actively sues for breach of contract when a city tries to run new cable on said easment."
There's also set-up costs.  Even in places without franchise agreements, the set-up costs of setting up a parallel cable infrastructure to compete for the reduced share of a given market are frequently more than the market is really worth, at least compared to other investment opportunities or (to be needlessly cynical) the senior shareholders' payouts.  Google Fiber, for example, has bypassed both these easements and a significant portion of the initial costs by running their lines over the utility lines rather than underground, as is more conventional, which is why they're not quite playing the same game. 

Can't they just share a single main line or something? Of course though, there would be bandwidth issues.

Sounds like market forces and infrastructure forced the regional monopolies and breaking them up wouldn't actually solve the local monopolies.
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Culise

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14402 on: November 30, 2016, 03:24:42 pm »

Can't they just share a single main line or something? Of course though, there would be bandwidth issues.

Sounds like market forces and infrastructure forced the regional monopolies and breaking them up wouldn't actually solve the local monopolies.
Bandwidth issues, and the fact that they have no real reason to share unless they're forced to.  After all, Comcast (for an example, picking an ISP just because; it could be another ISP depending on where you are) paid to install all these lines; why should they let Charter (for another similarly arbitrary example) come in and use their lines and take their customers, even for a rental cost?  In several countries in Europe, apparently legislation exists that would force them to lease pipe bandwidth to their competitors.  In the US, the market was deregulated back in 2002 to hope that the companies would compete with each other to create new networks and drop prices.  Obviously, this has not materialized; as you say, breaking them up without coming up with some system to replace them wouldn't really solve the issue in itself, and it would probably actually worsen services in rural areas.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 03:26:57 pm by Culise »
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14403 on: November 30, 2016, 03:41:59 pm »

The only viable service option here is cocks. I mean Cox. Cox Cable, "your friend in the digital age." They happen to not be as bad as Comcast but that's probably because they're too lazy to be properly evil.

Other options:
Satellite has latency measured in seconds
DSL and dialup run on phone lines, which weren't installed in this house because cell phones are a thing. Dialup at previous house was terrible quality due to awful phone lines. Not sure if the shit lines were the house's, the town's, or both.
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GreatJustice

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14404 on: November 30, 2016, 03:44:03 pm »

Dictatorships tend to be worse than free market capitalistic societies

Corporations are accountable to their customers, after all, and don't usually have the option of literally shoving large groups of people against the wall and shooting them in the head to dump into a mass grave. Sometimes, but usually only with the approval of the government.

It comes down to who you're more afraid of, which comes down to who you trust less, and who you think is more reliant on external approval. Big Government? Or Big Business? Either one can be dangerous, but if you play them off each other, they balance out. It's when they work together that shit gets real bad real fast, to be honest.

After all, the sheperd can do more with meat then he can with wool, and a sheepdog is useful to have around.

Do you think Comcast is accountable to their customers? Our government already isn't preventing local monopolies, what do you think would happen in an even more libertarian society?

In general, when Comcast has a local monopoly, it is because it was given such by a government. 

Wrong. Absolutely, positively wrong. Cable companies get their monopolies either by sitting down and carving up the country between them or by buying up all their competitors. That is the entire reason that you only see ads for cable vs. satellite and almost never see two cable companies duking it out - because the cable companies have agreed not to compete.

The fixed cost of starting an ISP and laying cable is not particularly high. The biggest barrier to entry is that municipalities and states generally won't let new competitors lay their lines or attach new ones to the utility poles, and that's a barrier imposed by government regulation, not the free market. Just look at Romanian internet: it was created more or less by kids making their own ISPs for neighbourhoods and extending them with their own wire. No cartels, no regulation, no subsidies and some of the fastest internet in the world despite Romania being a dirt poor country.

If the "cartel model" of telecom was even close to accurate, then any old idiot could make a boatload of money by starting up an ISP and waiting for Comcast to buy them out.

Can't they just share a single main line or something? Of course though, there would be bandwidth issues.

Sounds like market forces and infrastructure forced the regional monopolies and breaking them up wouldn't actually solve the local monopolies.
Bandwidth issues, and the fact that they have no real reason to share unless they're forced to.  After all, Comcast (for an example, picking an ISP just because; it could be another ISP depending on where you are) paid to install all these lines; why should they let Charter (for another similarly arbitrary example) come in and use their lines and take their customers, even for a rental cost?  In several countries in Europe, apparently legislation exists that would force them to lease pipe bandwidth to their competitors.  In the US, the market was deregulated back in 2002 to hope that the companies would compete with each other to create new networks and drop prices.  Obviously, this has not materialized; as you say, breaking them up without coming up with some system to replace them wouldn't really solve the issue in itself, and it would probably actually worsen services in rural areas.

This is how things are done in Canada, and we somehow have even worse service than the US does.

Regions basically have a government granted monopoly on cable ownership who are in turn required to let competitors use their lines. The idea was that the competitors would keep the owners honest and lead to improved service. The reality is that the line owners just don't bother upgrading their infrastructure unless they're forced to (because no one can lay new lines to compete with them), the ISPs using the lines can't improve their speed beyond the limits of the line owners, and if a customer of one of the smaller ISPs has issues with their physical connection (eg. the box is flooded or something) then they'll take their sweet time responding because they have literally zero motivation to help another company's customers.
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14405 on: November 30, 2016, 03:47:29 pm »

centurystink.. er.. centurylink DSL for me. Very crippled asymmetric DSL. 

That or way overpriced local WISP, (uses 2.4ghz wifi signals. how quaint.)- Satellite, or dialup. 

I am lucky, i get FOUR options. wow. Much selection, such choice!
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Zangi

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14406 on: November 30, 2016, 04:08:11 pm »

Verizon DSL.  Gets shoddy everytime the weather acts up.  Notfast.

Time Warner Cable just recently became available in my area, like a year or 2 ago.  It works, but for some reason, some of my stuff can't keep a continuous wireless connection with the box that came with. 
I havn't actually been bothered enough to poke around with it though.

I guess there is a satellite option, but it is worse then DSL for gaming and stuff, plus weather.


Ain't no competition around these parts, just services that don't overlap in what they provide.
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14407 on: November 30, 2016, 04:09:11 pm »

Meanwhile, a 538 chat oddly supports my theory that this whole thing is a ploy to get Pence into office. Or, at least, in control.

I agree with you on that: http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/30/politics/mike-pence-role-donald-trump-administration/index.html
Shhhhhhhhhhhit.

As much as Trump is bad, Pence is worse...

That's why I've been hesitant to equate Trump to Hitler. Trump is a Quisling. Pence is approximately Himmler.
And Bannon is approximately Gebbels. "Make lies that are so outrageous that no one will believe that a person could lie so much" seems to be Breitbart's modus operandi.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14408 on: November 30, 2016, 04:10:17 pm »

Isn't it spelled Goebbels??
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14409 on: November 30, 2016, 04:11:50 pm »

Can't they just share a single main line or something? Of course though, there would be bandwidth issues.

Sounds like market forces and infrastructure forced the regional monopolies and breaking them up wouldn't actually solve the local monopolies.
I mean... they can, but unless the line gets nationalized those kinds of setups tend to involve some sort of payment to the line builder. Rent, basically. With that kind of thing, well. You still have a monopoly, more or less, just a different one (line running/owning) that's trapped a different market (isp companies, et al). Which could arguably be better for the isp's consumers (providing there's some way for the line owner's customers or somethin' to pressure for good service), but you've still got more or less the same problem.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14410 on: November 30, 2016, 04:14:35 pm »

Municipal.  Broadband.

*sigh*
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14411 on: November 30, 2016, 04:15:32 pm »

Can't they just share a single main line or something? Of course though, there would be bandwidth issues.

Sounds like market forces and infrastructure forced the regional monopolies and breaking them up wouldn't actually solve the local monopolies.
I mean... they can, but unless the line gets nationalized those kinds of setups tend to involve some sort of payment to the line builder. Rent, basically. With that kind of thing, well. You still have a monopoly, more or less, just a different one (line running/owning) that's trapped a different market (isp companies, et al). Which could arguably be better for the isp's consumers (providing there's some way for the line owner's customers or somethin' to pressure for good service), but you've still got more or less the same problem.

I may be wrong, but it's sounding more and more like an infrastructure problem than neccesarily regulation (though regulations do play a big part).
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Sergarr

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14412 on: November 30, 2016, 04:17:06 pm »

Isn't it spelled Goebbels??
Whoops. That's what I get for using German-Russian-English transliteration!
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14413 on: November 30, 2016, 05:00:10 pm »

Meanwhile, a 538 chat oddly supports my theory that this whole thing is a ploy to get Pence into office. Or, at least, in control.

I agree with you on that: http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/30/politics/mike-pence-role-donald-trump-administration/index.html
Shhhhhhhhhhhit.

As much as Trump is bad, Pence is worse...

That's why I've been hesitant to equate Trump to Hitler. Trump is a Quisling. Pence is approximately Himmler.
And Bannon is approximately Gebbels. "Make lies that are so outrageous that no one will believe that a person could lie so much" seems to be Breitbart's modus operandi.

Himmler? I'd say closer to Goering or Hess, but I really don't think there's any applicable ones comparable to Pence. A closer analogy would be a weak/ineffective/incompetent/whateverlabel top leader and a powerful VP/PM.

Kind of hard to make definite comparisons when Trump hasn't actually been inaugurated yet and started governing and we don't know how much of a power grab Pence will actually make. He may have Dick Cheney as his role model, but he isn't Dick Cheney. Though it's exacerbated by the top of the tickets massive inexperience. Assuming he does make some kind of power grab and it's unknown how much influence he'll actually exert.

Then again, Trump doesn't seem like the kind of person who would give an inch to allowing someone have more power. Delegate power, sure, but try to one up him? definetly not.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 05:26:13 pm by smjjames »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #14414 on: November 30, 2016, 05:30:53 pm »

In the vein of the sarcasm weird uses, Authoritarians/Demagogues exploit human nature (and whatever populist anger there is broiling at the time) to their own ends, news at 11.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2016, 05:34:09 pm by smjjames »
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