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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1395747 times)

Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13305 on: November 19, 2016, 05:17:39 am »

And if all the above is not enough, we have piece of evidence #1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_in_Guerrilla_Warfare

Basically, the CIA wrote the definitive fucking manual for covert death squads to overthrow a peaceful government, and were handing it out to American-trained officers who "just happened" to go on to form death squads.

When they got busted teaching people this stuff the US government made the shittiest excuses ever about the manual existing. One lone wolf operative of the CIA wrote it, and "clearly" the US government itself wouldn't condone this stuff. Despite the stuff in the manual being exactly what pro-US death squads all over Latin America were actually doing. If you buy that one you'll also buy the related Iran/Contra affair where they threw one junior army officer under the bus claiming he'd single-handedly masterminded secret military operations on multiple continents, involving multiple branches of the military and the CIA, and nobody higher up had a clue about what he was doing. I mean, seriously, that's completely beyond belief.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 05:27:22 am by Reelya »
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apiks

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13306 on: November 19, 2016, 05:37:07 am »

Fair enough, I can imagine how the US would be supporting death squads in foreign countries and teaching secret services like the CIA that. I will agree with you that the USA has been supporting some dubious elements in foreign countries including death squads.

Yet it might be due to a misunderstanding, but I thought we were talking about death squads in the USA itself. The closest I can imagine is the CIA. The foreign policy of the USA has never been under question and it is irrelevant which party is in control. For example, the 1963 Salvador thing you showcased was during a democrat President and a Democratic Senate Majority. This completely goes against the whole claim that its only the Republicans that are bad. If both parties engage in such behavior, you can't really claim a moral high ground regarding this topic.

With all the publicity regarding this presidential campaign, I recall Clinton being the one that was in favor of a more aggressive approach in terms to Russia and the middle east. Not to mention dozens of scandals regarding indirectly funding ISIS and other terrorism groups, though that can be said of previous governments too.


Anyways, yes, death squads have been supported by the USA in a non-official manner. Returning to the original reason for bringing them up though, I think I've made my point that whether the government is Republican or Democrat has little bearing on the USA's foreign policy. At most it can be steered, like how people say Obama cleared up the middle east wars. This point specifically is quite funny since Trump is more pro-peace than Clinton from what I see.
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13307 on: November 19, 2016, 06:14:17 am »

Quote
Yet it might be due to a misunderstanding, but I thought we were talking about death squads in the USA itself.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the USA had this. Though it would definitely be under blackops.

It isn't like the USA hasn't... done... pretty terrible things to its "less desirable" citizens.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13308 on: November 19, 2016, 06:25:06 am »

On the other hand during the election I do recall quite a bit of drama with Hillary Clinton being accused of key assassinations and so on.

Yeee-eeessss. That was fake news.  ::)
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13309 on: November 19, 2016, 06:54:41 am »

Quote
Yet it might be due to a misunderstanding, but I thought we were talking about death squads in the USA itself.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the USA had this. Though it would definitely be under blackops.

It isn't like the USA hasn't... done... pretty terrible things to its "less desirable" citizens.

If it went that far, then it was most likely related to the FBI's CoIntelPro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO#Methods

Quote
Illegal force: The FBI conspired with local police departments to threaten dissidents; to conduct illegal break-ins in order to search dissident homes; and to commit vandalism, assaults, beatings and assassinations. The object was to frighten or eliminate dissidents and disrupt their movements.

A lot of this was targeted at black activists. And then you have to remember that the KKK had plenty of members in the authority. So it wouldn't be far off to consider the KKK a death squad with ties to authority figures back in the day. So we don't really think of their being Death Squads inside the USA. But then again, we're probably not black people who lived in the south.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 06:59:18 am by Reelya »
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13310 on: November 19, 2016, 07:51:52 am »

You fellas seem rather set on pushing the fearmongering agenda. As such I have recognized your claims and asked a friend who is studying law in the US and has almost graduated. The "not withstanding other law" does indeed work the way I claimed. The humongous amount of anti-discrimination laws will still be in effect. Also here's the important part he told me.
And here's the part he apparently didn't, you've been told already in this very thread and seem to be pointedly ignoring, and is exactly what LGBT et al folks are worried about.

Anti-discrimination laws on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity do not exist in many parts of the United States of America. They are not federal protected classes. They do not allow someone to challenge a firing or hiring rejection on the basis of discrimination against those characteristics They do not put in place repercussions for businesses, non-profits, state and local government, and on, and on, and on, that choose to discriminate on the basis of LGBT alignment. Anti-discrimination laws apply to protected classes, and only protected classes.

This is not bloody fearmongering. This is shit we've been seeing for the last while. Specifically one of the latest tracks anti-LGBT groups are trying to leverage to do their thing. It's stuff that's letting religiously inclined religious organizations (or even just jackasses willing to claim they are) try to deny vital or near vital services (access to birth control, ferex) and still claim federal funding and other sorts of special treatment. It is, in fact, trying to give free reign to religious organizations or people otherwise interested in claiming religious grounds for their discrimination against certain portions of the population to be able to do so and face no federal funding repercussions. The intent of that law is to allow organizations to break their contracts with the federal government and still be able to legally challenge the fed if they decide to end, alter, or even enforce said contracts in response.

And it's not just LGBT, though they're just about the most overt worry. We already had a kerfluffle just a few years back where religiously backed healthcare related organizations were trying to avoid giving reproductive health care (specifically birth control, iirc) in direct contravention to agreements they had previously entered, and still claim the benefits of said agreements. That is what this bill is trying to allow. That is what should not be allowed. They want to make an agreement under the acknowledgement they're going to discriminate on the grounds in question, fine. They've got the right to try, mostly. But they don't deserve exemptions if they didn't, and they don't deserve grounds to challenge if they're refused because of it.

Also, yeah, you will be randomly fired if your boss doesn't like you. It's called at-will employment, it's common in the US, and just about the only way to challenge it is under discrimination laws, which only apply to protected classes (which, again. LGBT aren't on a federal level, and aren't in more than one state). All this bill is trying to do on that front is remove the power of the federal government to strip funding from (and/or deny) individuals that do so while claiming religious grounds, if they're not targeting someone specifically under a protected class even if said funding is contingent on not targeting anyone. Which, hey. Is bullshit. Utter. These organizations want to discriminate like that, they can set up an agreement allowing for it beforehand rather than lying about what they're going to do and then trying to force the feds to still pay them. They can also shut the hell up if the feds decide their bigoted ass isn't in the interests of the state and won't be getting federal support.
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13311 on: November 19, 2016, 07:58:20 am »

Well there is the fact that the exact wording of a law and how it will be used are different.

For example the law that allowed Black people to be recognized as a person under the law?

Also allowed Corporations to be recognized as a person under the law.

So one thing you will want to make sure is that the Supreme Justices aren't the sort of people who would take these new laws and allow them to be bastardized. So as long as the people in the supreme court are fair and just we will be alright.
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Tiruin

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13312 on: November 19, 2016, 09:12:30 am »

You fellas seem rather set on pushing the fearmongering agenda. As such I have recognized your claims and asked a friend who is studying law in the US and has almost graduated. [...]
I'm too busy being caught up in our politics on the other side of the world from America right now (and forwarding up Frumple's/Caroline's notes just above mine) but just to mention a tiny part with the usage of shorthands--please don't associate others' ideas, if at the surface it may seem too general, with an ulterior agenda. It respectively comes off as implying the implication being said by us, or whomever the statement may apply to. Nobody wishes to 'fearmonger' here, although the statements may appear as such on the surface. And if the notion that 'your action = you' comes to mind, it is always better to inquire with the other person--much more listen to them, too--than assume their position and act on it as if that is their position, because everyone has a lot of thoughts in mind when they mention something.

And with a politics thread like this, with the content of certain people going along their consistent personality, discussion is the theme of the posting. Always note that people are posting because of their concerns, and it can be worded in a way that they may be familiar with that may not be that forthcoming to another; talk to them rather than attack them. Attack their statements in the least, but there's always a better way to talk to each other.

* Tiruin is also hugpiled x~x Thank you for the nice everyday humor. Deeply appreciated!

E: GAH NEW PAGE. Discussion is last page! Mine is just a tiny sidecomment! D:
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 09:14:02 am by Tiruin »
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13313 on: November 19, 2016, 09:39:29 am »

There are cities that provide protections as well, but we all saw how unreliable that can be when North Carolina's republican legislature decided it didn't approve of Charlotte's anti-discrimination policies, and passed a statewide law to block them.

I live in one of those states which is purple on every one of those graphs. I'm concerned for the people who don't. I'm also concerned that the GOP may decide to go a step further and try to supersede state law. DOMA was only declared unconstitutional by a 5-4 margin. If they can get two justices on the supreme court, and pass it again, the court might eventually overturn their previous ruling.
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apiks

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13314 on: November 19, 2016, 09:41:27 am »

-snip-
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 04:50:30 am by apiks »
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13315 on: November 19, 2016, 09:54:33 am »

Well fancy that. Of course you're telling this to me
Who are you?
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DJ

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13316 on: November 19, 2016, 10:33:14 am »

So apparently the new head of CIA thinks that using encryption is a red flag in and of itself :(
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13317 on: November 19, 2016, 10:35:56 am »

So apparently the new head of CIA thinks that using encryption is a red flag in and of itself :(
That'll go over well with the internet folks who supported Trump, I bet.

Also, I thought that reply by Shadowlord was to Caroline's data dump.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13318 on: November 19, 2016, 10:40:20 am »

Also, I thought that reply by Shadowlord was to Caroline's data dump.

Yep.

P.S. http://time.com/4576513/mike-pences-hateful-laws
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Tiruin

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13319 on: November 19, 2016, 10:40:51 am »

Well fancy that. Of course you're telling this to me and not the others who won't even entertain the idea that the entire world is not out to get them. Do I have to act as if they are emotionally handicapped, because I'd consider that insulting.
...If this was to me, I'm curious how you took what I'm saying in the first place o_O There's...a lot more personal steps you're saying there for yourself and generalization towards others there, which is a point I'm addressing that gets in the way of discussion, instead of aiming to contend.

The "Of course" bit doesn't come off well either. :-\ And that last sentence makes me wonder what's the connection of that and what anyone in the past 15+ posts have even mentioned. (Who are you talking to and where are you getting this impression from? :/)
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