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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1426353 times)

wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13110 on: November 17, 2016, 03:09:15 pm »

I am the guy who never ventured in.

I was living in the real world, before living in the real world was cool. ('course, I was a "luddite" before it became cool, and all that.)
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13111 on: November 17, 2016, 03:18:16 pm »

Since comments were disabled for this page, and usually I look through the comments to get second opinions and see what other discussions spawn off of it, here is something for your perusal.

Opinions? As long as we don't start massive flamewars.

I'm not yet sure how I feel about it, but that might be because close to literally all of my news/social media is telling me that Trump is explicitly racist.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13112 on: November 17, 2016, 03:42:51 pm »

... well, I've just hit point 2, and so far my opinion is whoever wrote that is a bucket of idiot. As I've noted repeatedly lately, the alt-right, and all the crap close enough to it it doesn't matter, is a helluva' lot more than some tiny internet movement. There was stuff above that too that was just so off base it hurt.

And now I've reached the end, skimming over parts about three quarters of the way through, and seem to have found someone that could fit three people's worth of idiot into a single bucket. The bucket is almost made of sense, which is trying to hide the idiot behind it but good god.

Bloody hell I don't even know where to start. I don't want to start. I actively regret reading that because I don't have the energy to tear it apart and at least half of it offends me as thinking human being.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 03:44:57 pm by Frumple »
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13113 on: November 17, 2016, 03:50:24 pm »

Apologies for that, then. Didn't realize it would be so upsetting/draining to read. :/

I would ask you to explain but you already said you don't have the energy. Sorry. :[
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13114 on: November 17, 2016, 03:54:39 pm »

On "crying wolf"--

Yes.  The far left has been crying wolf a great deal. The thing is, it isn't "Crying wolf" for them. They genuinely believe it is racism.

Case in point, when Obama was first running for his first term, I saw much of the hysteria about his being "a historic first black president" as disgusting. It is my opinion that the skin color of the president is not important. What matters is the politics of that president. (To whit, see trump. Our first ever ORANGE president. I dont see a huge fanfare about him being historic for being orange-- I see lots of people talking about his politics though.) At the time, I did not agree with his "hope and change" platform, because I saw it as populist rhetoric (much the same as "make america great again", and equally hollow, as history showed, with only a few highlights.)  For much the same reason that I feel electing Hillary so she could "Be the historic first female president!!" is entirely wrong headed, (Pro tip, your genitals are not really something you want involved in affairs of state.) and trying to pander to gender identity politics is gross populism, I saw the "First historic black president!" line as disgusting, and an affront to proper governance. You dont elect somebody based on what genitals they have, or what their skin color is, you elect them based on their platform. When I stated this, I was *INSTANTANEOUSLY* "a racist."

In reality, I could not care less what color Obama was. He could have been green. I consider his race a non-issue, and consider the very idea of voting for him based on his skin color to be OBSCENELY racist, in the really real sense. (When you shape your decision making based on the color of somebody's skin, you are engaging in racism. defacto.)  Yet, despite this-- to many people I was "A horribly racist person."

I found the inability of the extreme left to comprehend its OWN racism, coupled with its reflexive use of the pejorative, very very offensive.  I concluded that I would just have to shake my head at them, and forgive them their ignorance.

However, not everyone is so congenial.  Many people who did not like Obama for very specific features of his platform were likewise drubbed with being called "racists", even though like myself, the color of the man's skin meant precisely nothing to them.  When you lob an accusation at somebody, it needs to be for really substantiated reasons, and not "Oh noes! My feelings! My identity!" To me, the impulse to label myself, and others like me, as "racist" for disagreeing with his being the right candidate were not seen as "I disagree with his policies on X, Y, and Z." and instead seen as "YOU ARE DENYING MY IDENTITY ITS REPRESENTATION!"

When I, and others, would try to politely reaffirm that it was "No--- really-- your group identity is not really important in choosing a president, his policies on X, Y, and Z are---" they just doubled down, heard only what they wanted to hear, ("OMG! YOU SAID MY IDENTITY IS NOT IMPORTANT!") and went into full hysterics mode.

It may sound crude, and even flame bait to say this, but to me the issue is that too much of the left is driven not by their minds, but by their hormones and emotional states.  Their group identity is vastly important to them, to the point where it overrides any internal self-identity. The "I am a WOMAN!" is more important than "I am jane, and I like these things--", etc.

Because they are ruled by emotions rather than more cold, rational thought, they percieve cold, rational thought as a direct personal attack against their group identity, and thus against them personally, and read way too much into a cold, reasoned statement than they should, resulting in very distorted and absurd opinions.

The reliance on the group identity model then compels them to seek reaffirmation within their groups, which function as exclusive echo chambers. They present their own absurdly distorted view of the interaction they just had with somebody who simply disagrees for political reasons, as having had a conversation with a radically evil person who hates women (or gays, or blacks, or whatever group.) The reaction to this is "Oh how horrible! You are perfectly right to be upset by that!", which re-affirms the distorted narrative, and kicks the echoes off inside the echo chamber, culminating in an increasingly outlandish view of what they perceive as an existential threat, when in fact, it was just some guy who disagrees for purely political reasons, and is totally ambivalent about their group.

When this happens often enough, it alienates these completely benign people that have been wrongfully maligned, and when that happens, those benign people stop having benign opinions of those groups, and REAL tensions start.

Since I am very much opposed to seeing real tensions, real gender hatred, real racism, and real hate in general--- I would like to make an empassioned plea for people to stop using echo chambers, stop reacting on pure emotion and the please at least TRY to understand what other people are actually saying-- asking for clarification if you see something you find horrible, to be absolutely sure, before jumping to the "OMG! A HATER!" conclusion.

Please try to build a strong internal self-identity as well.  Reliance on group identities to such an extreme is very unhealthy, and is not good for anyone.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 03:56:29 pm by wierd »
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13115 on: November 17, 2016, 03:55:54 pm »

Apologies for that, then. Didn't realize it would be so upsetting/draining to read. :/

I would ask you to explain but you already said you don't have the energy. Sorry. :[
Eh, it happens. Not really your fault. Most of it boils down to what appears to be intentionally misleading framing (like the bit calling the racist as fuck lines in trump's acceptance speech not that, because apparently that blog piece's author doesn't understand the concept of audience), where it's not just flat out bloody wrong or intentionally showing only supporting examples of the point they're trying to make while as-near-as-I-could-tell pointedly ignoring or denying counterexamples existed. The bit where they spewed some shit about the LGBT angle and then didn't say goddamn thing about pence, nor the other noted bigots trump has been surrounding himself with, was another one. Thing was littered with stuff like that.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13116 on: November 17, 2016, 04:04:11 pm »

What Frumple said, but here are a few things:

The author appears to have simply ignored any evidence that contradicts or conflicts with what they are saying.
Also ignored Brietbart, talk radio, etc. How the fuck do you overlook Brietbart considering Steve Bannon is all over the news lately?
Minimizes or ignores everything hostile that trump has said about particular groups or people.
Etc.

I started skimming partway through and eventually stopped because oh my gods.

Edit: P.S. I did not read the two posts that were posted while I was writing this until after I had posted it because these forums have a tendency to attract a lot of posts quickly.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 04:09:24 pm by Shadowlord »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13117 on: November 17, 2016, 04:04:53 pm »

Apologies for that, then. Didn't realize it would be so upsetting/draining to read. :/

I would ask you to explain but you already said you don't have the energy. Sorry. :[

It wasn't upsetting to read, but it was certainly a bit confusing and seems to be cherrypicking by not looking at everything Trump said and I was confused what the person was trying to prove. Plus things are so different from 2008 and 2012 that you can't really compare them to 2016. Then it devolves into a meltdown saying 'please stop making therapists lives harder!!!1!!11!!1!'
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13118 on: November 17, 2016, 04:06:32 pm »

What Frumple said, but here are a few things:

The author appears to have simply ignored any evidence that contradicts or conflicts with what they are saying.
Also ignored Brietbart, talk radio, etc. How the fuck do you overlook Brietbart considering Steve Bannon is all over the news lately?
Minimizes or ignores everything hostile that trump has said about particular groups or people.
Etc.

I started skimming partway through and eventually stopped because oh my gods.

As I said, the person cherrypicked evidence and ignored everything else. And yeah, I pretty much skimmed through it, over half of it seemed to be trying to prove 'whites aren't racist' or something.
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13119 on: November 17, 2016, 04:07:23 pm »

I would advise against this "Give, up, TOO MUCH DISAGREE!" mindset. 

Especially when people get admonished for not putting in that effort in the other direction. (See, Sarkeesian, and pals, VS Thunderfoot.)
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13120 on: November 17, 2016, 04:09:05 pm »

DANG YOU SARKEESIAN!

I knew you would still haunt us.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13121 on: November 17, 2016, 04:12:26 pm »

What about Sarkeesian? She's irrelevant to me. I watched one of her videos and the criticism made no sense. So I haven't watched any others.
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13122 on: November 17, 2016, 04:24:07 pm »

She has a strong following of fellow echo chamber mates, who rail against outside voices who dissent. They are part of the radical left. People should expose themselves to her first hand to fully comprehend her extreme views, so they can reach a more informed position.

While she is radical, she does have a few nuggets worth exploring.

Likewise with the linked article.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13123 on: November 17, 2016, 04:28:24 pm »

I would advise against this "Give, up, TOO MUCH DISAGREE!" mindset.
I would advise not harping on the reader for the written bit being a piece of crap, myself.
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #13124 on: November 17, 2016, 04:32:01 pm »

I have no problem with specific disagreements, as long as they are substantiated.

I do have a problem with guilt by association, which is what is done to any such nuggets worth pondering when the reader ejects, because "too much disagree, therefore wrong."
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