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[wierd]

FRUMPLE, FOR THE NTH GODS DAMNED TIME, FARMING IS SKILLED LABOR!

[McTraveller]

Interesting discussion.

Any farming experts here got some data? Let's ask a theoretical question, could Manhattan feed itself by transforming all its Parks (mainly central park obviously) into agriculture? i presume crops won't be efficient, but Eggs, Chicken meat and Milk might. if we take Trump Tower and Trump Building and transform them into vertical pigs farm, it might be able to provide enough bacon.

Actually an interesting thought experiment: what would happen if you enforced a maximum population density limit across a geography as large as the US?  Would this help or hurt pollution, social unrest, etc?  I think it would hurt "efficiency" in some senses, and hurt things like availability of, say, major league sports teams, but it would probably resolve some other issues.

[Neonivek]

You would HAVE to use hydroponics...

[wierd]

If you redistributed the population of the US, we would need much more infrastructure. The current trend of "No, we dont need to pay for that, cause reasons and shit." would no longer be possible. 


That is to say-- current infrastructure focuses on getting things into, and out of, cities. (be it goods, or people).  This is centralized, and allows for centralized planning and control over the maintenance of those infrastructure resources.

(This is also why rural infrastructure often gets short shrifted-- too disperse, not centralized, low return rate, and of course, not in the city, so the far more populous city centers dont want to pay for it.)

It would make local townships and county governments far more powerful, because there would be no major cities.  Getting food distributed working with that many small governments would be a nightmare.

[Frumple]

FRUMPLE, FOR THE NTH GODS DAMNED TIME, FARMING IS SKILLED LABOR!

No shit? I've acknowledged that more than once, if not the exact term. It's skilled labor that can be trained, and isn't somehow inextricably locked into an apprentice system that requires the current batch to do that training. Beyond that, while a lot of the work does require a bit of training, much of it is only a bit. Ag science and some of the overseeing/planning/etc. aspects can get complicated but the scutwork of running a farm is significantly less so. And even beyond that, it's not like there's not folks plenty capable of that stuff already in urban areas. Again, you're overestimating just how important that skilled labor is, and significantly.

[wierd]

And you are underestimating how "just replacing" them does nothing to solve the problem, except to silence the people you dont like. (You just make more people to silence later.)

Also, it takes this resource called TIME, to train people. Again, this is what caused the fammine in the ukraine. You cant just plant any old time, or harvest any old time, and if your people are not properly trained, you dont meet expected yeilds, and then there is famine.

[Vilanat]

Ii presume crops won't be efficient, but Eggs, Chicken meat and Milk might.

[Extended Mark Hamill Joker Laugh]

*cough*

Ever take a biology course? (Or physics, lol)

Shame for me (Or more precisely, my college) i did! was so side tracked with the fantasy of self sustaining cities that animals also need to feed was a blindspot.

[Reelya]

Interesting discussion.

Any farming experts here got some data? Let's ask a theoretical question, could Manhattan feed itself by transforming all its Parks (mainly central park obviously) into agriculture? i presume crops won't be efficient, but Eggs, Chicken meat and Milk might. if we take Trump Tower and Trump Building and transform them into vertical pigs farm, it might be able to provide enough bacon.

Actually an interesting thought experiment: what would happen if you enforced a maximum population density limit across a geography as large as the US?  Would this help or hurt pollution, social unrest, etc?  I think it would hurt "efficiency" in some senses, and hurt things like availability of, say, major league sports teams, but it would probably resolve some other issues.

Basically consider how you'd implement a law requiring New York's population density to be capped. You'd start by not allowing any new apartments to be built in a lot of places, and restricting rentals. Existing rental prices would skyrocket, driving people out of the city. Construction jobs would disappear, etc etc. Also driving a lot of other businesses broke or to other cities (high costs and harder to get staff). After a while, the housing prices would drop off since the city is hemorrhaging money and people.

Now, if people are "driven out of New York" by excessive housing costs, where are they going to go? Other cities in some cases, surrounding areas in others (commuting) and other countries as well. The problem is that this isn't a zero-sum game. A lot of wealth will be driven out of the country altogether if something like this was artificially done.

[Draignean]

You would HAVE to use hydroponics...

Compare and contrast...
http://www.treehugger.com/green-architecture/vertical-farms-wrong-so-many-levels.html

http://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/automated-indoor-vertical-farm-will-produce-30000-heads-lettuce-day.html

I'm not against these systems, and, with a couple nuclear reactors, you could sustain a substantial urban population with them, but they are far from flawless. Worth investigating,imho.

[wierd]

I dont think "the rent is too damned high" has in any way stopped the continued influx of people to NYC.  Retarded it some? yes. Stopped? NO.

People in NYC pay 300$/mo to live in a closet.  ALREADY.

[Shadowlord]

I thought the housing costs in NYC were already obscene.

[wierd]

They ARE.

"live in a closet" is not hyperbole.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m94dizzZqxE

[Greiger]

So news I got recently about Hillary apparently doxxing the electoral college to force them to become faithless voters so trump does not win.  Any truth to this or is this just something my coworkers blew out of proportion?

[McTraveller]

...A lot of wealth will be driven out of the country altogether if something like this was artificially done.

Do you mean Real wealth, or monetary wealth? Because those are different things. Although I agree they are fairly correlated.

But yes, a transition period would be painful - but we're already in a painful transition period anyway, so that's kind of moot.  That's part of the thought experiment.

But in a way that's happening anyway isn't it? Aren't housing prices in NYC insane anyway, driving people elsewhere?  So you probably could just do it through attrition. Maybe a better example is San Francisco, which already doesn't allow new high-density construction?

(EDIT: hah, sniped!)

[tonnot98]

So news I got recently about Hillary apparently doxxing the electoral college to force them to become faithless voters so trump does not win.  Any truth to this or is this just something my coworkers blew out of proportion?

She's already conceded the election, so she's not winning. Maybe Gary Johnson? But more than likely your coworkers are just spreading false rumors.