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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1412060 times)

Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12315 on: November 13, 2016, 04:53:57 pm »

... like, relatively easier? Because air quality got worse over here?
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Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12316 on: November 13, 2016, 04:56:33 pm »

Because more Chinese factories would have to close if they're moved back to USA. So they'd breathe objectively easier as well as relatively.

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12317 on: November 13, 2016, 05:01:54 pm »

Anybody know what the heck a WH Chief Strategist does? I tried wiki'ng it and nothing came up, tried googling and pretty much either nothing or Chief Strategists for campaigns and specific things while Bannon's position is seemingly nonspecific.

Also, inb4 Brietbart becomes Trumps propoganda arm, oh wait, it already pretty much is.
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sluissa

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12318 on: November 13, 2016, 05:10:11 pm »

Anybody know what the heck a WH Chief Strategist does? I tried wiki'ng it and nothing came up, tried googling and pretty much either nothing or Chief Strategists for campaigns and specific things while Bannon's position is seemingly nonspecific.

Also, inb4 Brietbart becomes Trumps propoganda arm, oh wait, it already pretty much is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_strategy_officer
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Shadowlord

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12319 on: November 13, 2016, 05:11:25 pm »

Does this mean he won't be running the Ministry of Truth anymore?
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12320 on: November 13, 2016, 05:12:30 pm »

Anybody know what the heck a WH Chief Strategist does? I tried wiki'ng it and nothing came up, tried googling and pretty much either nothing or Chief Strategists for campaigns and specific things while Bannon's position is seemingly nonspecific.

Also, inb4 Brietbart becomes Trumps propoganda arm, oh wait, it already pretty much is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_strategy_officer

His propoganda guy then.

Does this mean he won't be running the Ministry of Truth anymore?

He already resigned as CEO when he went to Trumps campaign, but it seems like he still pulls the strings from afar.
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12321 on: November 13, 2016, 05:17:37 pm »

Though, y'know ree, after reading that edit just now, it hit me for the first time one of the ways automation could save money is by being able to operate it in an environment that would straight up kill a human being. A factory throwing out certain safety regs and having a literally deadly assembly floor might actually be a possibility, something in our future. Don't ask where the poisonous/flesh-melting/etc. fumes go. The owner probably couldn't answer you anyway.

That would be some kind of horrifying irony, though. Factory comes into a town on the wings of a Trump administration regulation purge, builds on up, everyone's all excited about new jobs and everything... and there's no jobs, the nearby children and elderly start dying, and they themselves find out shortly thereafter that whatever was in the pollutants that factory started putting out did stuff to them that's never going to go away.
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12322 on: November 13, 2016, 05:22:03 pm »

I read the news today, Oh boy.

Looks like Her Trump has decided that he needs to make good on his promise to do something about illegal immigrants.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/13/donald-trump-plans-to-immediately-deport-2-to-3-million-undocumented-immigrants/

From the article, he seems to only want to deport those "with criminal records", but little detail on what crimes he considers valid for deportation. Does this include jaywalking maybe?

Also, what do the original nations of extraction think about a plan to push that many people back into their doorsteps?
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12323 on: November 13, 2016, 05:25:08 pm »

At least so long as some cop or another doesn't decide the question of you actually having done something is academic, anyway :-\
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12324 on: November 13, 2016, 05:28:09 pm »

And... that's right, rol. There is only so much they can use up. Andrea taps that, too, just now. It's a major part of why increasing production efficiency hasn't resulted in an increasing workforce.

To supplement some of what 's said above, some of y'all seem to be forgetting demand and market saturation. You can't just infinitely ramp up your production and expect things to turn out well -- if no one's buying, or no one's willing to buy for more than it costs you to make, pumping out more stuff does sod all except lose you money and the ability to support what workers you did. If it's reached the point where the market just doesn't need the gubbin(s) your factory is tooled to build, or doesn't need nearly as much of it, or has stopping growing as quickly and no longer can support you increasing production as quickly, again, pumping out more does sod all.

Sometimes retooling is an option but there's a whole host of new variables that brings in, and it all it does is kick the can down the road a bit. The human population and especially those with the resources to buy stuff by and large hasn't been growing faster than our improvement in making crap -- that's one (of the myriad) reason(s) manufacturing et al caps, just hard, flat caps at a point and stops being able to keep up with increases in potential new workers. It certainly wouldn't keep up if we had been increasing workforce and subsequent output hand in hand with production.

It's, like. Materially, workforce, etc., etc. We could ramp up vehicle production, just as an example. We could ramp up vehicle production so much we would have literal mountains of vehicles (well, more of them, anyway) with no one to sell to and nothing to do with them, sitting there rotting, and then what? Broken window theory and the resulting mess of rusting steel only does so much, and there's other issues to consider as well (limited resources, mostly).

Or to point to something RP said, they were wrong when they flipped it. Flat Production Amount that we need a certain number of people to support is exactly what's going on, because more production past a certain point is less than useless.

... all that said, productivity gains isn't what's been causing QoL life loss in the areas manufacturing et al changes are hitting the hardest. Not adapting to it is what's causing that. Not retraining, not moving, not using the existent infrastructure (what there is) and expertise to dig out new markets, not having prepared for what was coming before the work started leaving. Far from all of that is even remotely the workers' fault (again, note everything I've mentioned previously re: funding, and add on to that the next to zero incentive businesses that more or less own towns have to future proof them), but... the QoL drop could have been avoided, or at least significantly mitigated. "All" it would have taken was everyone that had been working to reduce the funding and resources aimed at fixing the problem dropping dead, or at least out of politics, about fifty or sixty years ago.
But we haven't reached those limits yet, or we don't need to have. My point is that capitalist economics is, at it's core, about continuous trade of value between individuals which serves to produce, increase, or maximize the value of the goods or services being traded. If the generalized 'you' of manufacturers and their equivalents across different industries re-invest in their workers so that they have money to buy shit with, that creates the market which enables them to continue growing. The health of an economy is not measured by size but by motion; the higher the proportion of value that is transferring, and the more individuals it's able to transfer between, the healthier the market. When currency/value collects and goes unspent/untransferred, it's like a clot, except instead of being a sudden heart attack, it's a slow decline in health. So maybe more similar to toxins collecting in your liver or kidneys. Other than bubbles, at least.

More production of any one specific good past a specific point is useless, but production as a whole is not, as long as the economy is healthy. If the market of primary necessities is saturated, the market for secondary necessities remains open. If the market for secondary necessities is saturated, the market for supplementals remains open. If the market for supplementals is saturated, the market for luxuries remains open. The market for luxuries always remains open, so long as you are reinvesting in your market base to make sure they're healthy. It's like soil; you can just try to extract every bit of nutritional value and then move on, but you can only manage that for so long until it's all wasteland and you can't farm anymore.

...That said, manufacturing is not the only means of production, so I guess we're basically saying the same thing? I'm just saying that the markets don't need to be saturated anyway. And unless sale prices are already equal to cost-of-production+distribution, then there can still be more production without oversaturation.

EDIT: also it's super confusing when someone refers to Rolan and I in the same post since I'm not sure who they're referring to when they say 'rol'. In fact I'm still uncertain now since I'm not seeing Rolan's comment in the recent stuff
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 05:30:16 pm by Rolepgeek »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12325 on: November 13, 2016, 05:29:01 pm »

I read the news today, Oh boy.

Looks like Her Trump has decided that he needs to make good on his promise to do something about illegal immigrants.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/13/donald-trump-plans-to-immediately-deport-2-to-3-million-undocumented-immigrants/

From the article, he seems to only want to deport those "with criminal records", but little detail on what crimes he considers valid for deportation. Does this include jaywalking maybe?

Also, what do the original nations of extraction think about a plan to push that many people back into their doorsteps?

He has said that he would block immigration from countries who refuse to take the illegal immigrants back, or something along the lines of that. I guess the first and most obvious place to start would be those convicted of violent crimes.
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Vilanat

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12326 on: November 13, 2016, 05:29:39 pm »

I find it hard to understand the argument for immigration to developed countries in the face of the automation revolution. why would a country want more people if they can only provide less and less jobs?
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wierd

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12327 on: November 13, 2016, 05:33:01 pm »

I know where it starts, SMJJ, that isn't the real question.
Where does it end?  (History says it will get more absurd, as he meets with success.)

As for factory automation vs increases in quality of life--

When we reach the point of having fully automated "cornucopia machines", only two prospects remain.
1) Where anyone can use the cornucopia machine to make anything they want, whenever they want (Including more cornucopia machines)--
2) Only those owning rights to such machines may make use of them legally, because "Gotta protect innovation, even though it is now dead! Lifetime of creator + 500000 years! At least!!", while everyone else just dies from neglect. The rich wont need them now.


Vilanat:

There are benefits to society from allowing people with new ideas and methods to come here freely, even if there is no labor market. Art, sciences, and culture are perfectly valid reasons to allow continued immigration.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2016, 05:35:07 pm by wierd »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12328 on: November 13, 2016, 05:33:33 pm »

Immigration is actually pretty responsive to job availablility, illegal immigration dropped during the recession for example. Plus, there's other reasons to immigrate besides economic reasons, war, maybe just a better life in general (unless that falls under economic).
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Vilanat

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: Post-Apocalypse
« Reply #12329 on: November 13, 2016, 05:35:35 pm »

Yeah, i understand why immigrants would want to do it, i don't understand why countries would want to.
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