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[Neonivek]

So guys when EXACTLY will we know that America is doomed?

[smirk]

So guys when EXACTLY will we know that America is doomed?

Keep your eyes on the polls. When all win probabilities begin to read 66.6%, no matter what inputs their frustrated operators use, then you will hear a soft chittering coming from unfathomable reaches of sky and a clinging, unhealthy wind will begin to blow. Thus will you know.

[Frumple]

So, is anyone worried about just how fast the public's opinion on FBI has changed from "impartial defenders of justice, despite their personal opinions" to "Trumpland, to the point where them trying to coup the government or "accidentally" forget to prevent one would not be unexpected", in just a few days, and all based on their appointed-by-Obama director being an asshat with a couple questionable information releases, Twitter chatter, and a few news pieces with anonymous sources?

I mean, sure the standards of evidence would be obviously different either way, and sure, FBI has not done some very good things, but this is ridiculous, we're talking about probably the most iconic core law enforcement agency of USA, how could people have so little trust in it?

Near as I can tell no one's quite figured out why obama appointed the guy, heh. S'also not just been comey doing shit that might catch hatch law charges, iirc. Him and (by extension and otherwise) the FBI acting like they have at this particular point in time is pretty big juju, though. The backlash and the actions aren't small things. That said, don't think many outside the general trollosphere portions of the internet and media are really reacting like that. May if some house cleaning doesn't happen in the near future but m'pretty doubtful there's actually much of a swing against them, particularly in any long term sense.

Don't think the public's opinion of the FBI was "impartial defenders of justice" though, tbh. Probably higher regard than local police for a lot of folks but that's not necessarily saying much.

[Sergarr]

So, is anyone worried about just how fast the public's opinion on FBI has changed from "impartial defenders of justice, despite their personal opinions" to "Trumpland, to the point where them trying to coup the government or "accidentally" forget to prevent one would not be unexpected", in just a few days, and all based on their appointed-by-Obama director being an asshat with a couple questionable information releases, Twitter chatter, and a few news pieces with anonymous sources?

I mean, sure the standards of evidence would be obviously different either way, and sure, FBI has not done some very good things, but this is ridiculous, we're talking about probably the most iconic core law enforcement agency of USA, how could people have so little trust in it?

Given that anger at the establishment and at congress not doing it's job is so high, it's not exactly surprising. I can see how it might be surprising from an outside view looking in though.

I agree it's ridiculous, ridiculous that they let partianship get in the way of their job and ridiculous that we are in the current state that we are in.

But who - "they"? So far, we only have the knowledge of Comey being an asshat. Every bad thing FBI has currently did could be entirely blamed on FBI director giving out orders to his subordinates, which they can't refuse without being fired, possibly losing their decade-plus-long career - yet people immediately start to blame the entire multi-thousand strong FBI, as if they were all like Comey!

This looks like elevating one single individual - who was appointed by Obama, not even elected by the organization itself - to the point of being an identity for the entire organization. And that just doesn't feel right to me.

[Frumple]

Eh, if you're looking for a bit more (not exhaustive, but I'm also exhausted so yeah), there's also giuliani's recent claims. Dude's reversed since, but which one was the lie is the *shrugs*

[WealthyRadish]

he just detests Trump, who, according to him, is a 'textbook version of a fascist and a dictator'

Christ, don't remind me that Donald Trump might start appearing in textbooks, and that I may have to somehow explain this election to my grandchildren.

[misko27]

we're talking about probably the most iconic core law enforcement agency of USA, how could people have so little trust in it?

J. Edgar Hoover. First Director of the FBI. Famous for nearly turning the FBI into his own secret police, amassing dirt on dissidents and politicians alike. When he died, Congress immediately and unanimously passed a law preventing any director from serving multiple terms.

[SalmonGod]

we're talking about probably the most iconic core law enforcement agency of USA, how could people have so little trust in it?

J. Edgar Hoover. First Director of the FBI. Famous for nearly turning the FBI into his own secret police, amassing dirt on dissidents and politicians alike. When he died, Congress immediately and unanimously passed a law preventing any director from serving multiple terms.

Heh... I think I remember reading that Nixon was president when Hoover died, and Nixon's first words in reaction when he heard the news were "Jesus Christ that son-of-a-bitch!"

[Reelya]

J. Edgar Hoover also seemed deliberately to act like organized crime didn't exist. I'm not making it up, he swore blind there was no such thing as the mafia, and used all his powers to turn attention to commies and trade unions etc. But then, there was a big mafia heads meeting of interstate crime bosses, and they got busted by local police. Then suddenly congress is like "WTF Hoover?" and he reluctantly started investigating crime bosses instead of subversive college students and labor leaders.

Basically he was either completely in the pocket of the mafia, or he was determined not to actually do his job because it was easier to go after leftie kids and dig up dirt on politicians to get more funding for himself. That's the real history of why people sang the praises of the FBI. That guy had the power to destroy careers.

There was also stuff like CoIntelPro (counter intelligence program), which was supposed to catch subversives. More often however, an informant would actually incite violence and give the impressionable youth the tools to do it, such as bomb parts and diagrams. The FBI could then waltz in and claim they'd foiled this huge plot. That was declared illegal by Congress when it came out in the 1970s, but some of the dubious shit linked to FBI since then seem too similar to CoIntelPro practices to be coincidental.

[SalmonGod]

Of course, that's from a period of American history where anyone with half a brain understands all the federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies were horribly, horribly corrupt and generally fucked up in nature.

I'm sure it's no coincidence that the common belief as to when these agencies started to clean up their acts tends to fall just within the point where classification expires.

[Reelya]

But isolated events since then are eerily similar to CoIntelPro stuff. e.g. according to mainstream media reports at the time, one guy came forward about the 1993 WTC bombing, claiming he was an FBI informant who was told to give the guys the plans and the bomb, they were then meant to swoop in and stop them but something ballsed up. And the Judi Bari bombing in Oakland, 1990, which was really suspicious - the head of the FBI department there was an ex CoIntelPro agent.

1990s also had some real dubious shit with Waco and Ruby Ridge as well. Ruby Ridge basically sounded like someone pissed off the ATF, so them and FBI decided they needed to wipe the guys whole family to cover up whatever was up. There was a pattern with Waco and Ruby Ridge and similar - the ATF fucks up and shoots people, causing a stand-off, then the FBI comes in as "cleaners" and basically ends up annihilating everyone.

So maybe the abuses stopped, but they didn't stop in the 1970s when this shit was banned, they stopped in the 1990s when agents who cut their teeth in the Hoover / CoIntelPro days got old and died or retired.

[Dostoevsky]

I will say that this whole election has been the realization that so much of the current system in the US is entirely by tradition and not legal mandate.

Emphasizing this for profundity; if there's one thing I've learned working within the orbit of U.S. politics, it's that in many cases it's more important to know the tradition than it is the technical rule (sometimes in a good way, sometimes not). Acting only within the realm of what is legally allowed or not allowed allows one to be something of an asshat, to use a colorful phrase, and to a certain extent both candidates (and Congress!) have showed that.

Another important tradition not listed there is accepting election results and conceding if one loses. Gore did 'stretch' that one, definitely, but in the end he still conceded well before the current Congress ended and the formal transition of power occurred. Maybe Trump will act similarly and, if he loses, concede before the end of the calendar year (or at least before the scheduled inauguration date).

[Sergarr]

I literally cannot imagine Trump conceding. He's sooooo not the type to do anything like that.

[Dostoevsky]

I was admittedly speaking hypothetically/hopefully. And Trump's various staff have gotten him to do un-Trump-like things before (like teleprompter speeches) so maybe they could get him to do this. Also, fighting for a month and then conceding allows him to still raise a stink while avoiding some of the potential long-term consequences of doing so.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

In truth, there's no telling. Trump definitely wants to contest everything he possibly can, and has admitted as much directly. At the same time, the level of forces he's working with could easily mean he'll get a quiet word to persuade him.