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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1420640 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9375 on: November 02, 2016, 11:45:42 pm »

The funny part about the Permanent Democratic Majority arguments that always go on is that as far as evil plans go, it's easily derailed. All the Republicans have to do is stop doing....everything Trump is doing, and the attempt to turn Mexican-Americans into the borg or whatever will fail.

This nation is still very conservative. It's just not so conservative that over 50% of people will settle for constantly appeasing the far-right's desires and rage. If the GOP told them to stuff it and accept what they're given, they could probably ruin the Dems as a center-right coalition. That, for the record, is what Reagan did in order to get 49 of 50 states. His conditions were pretty favorable, but it was still a masterstroke.

I hate Reagan, but I'm glad he didn't have to live to see what became of the Republicans. Nobody should have to witness Donald Trump invoking their legacy.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 11:47:18 pm by MetalSlimeHunt »
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9376 on: November 02, 2016, 11:50:33 pm »

I never thought I'd say this, but I miss mainiac. At least his shitposting was coherent.
Yeah, this thread isn't the same.
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Strife26

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9377 on: November 03, 2016, 12:03:11 am »

And so we shall wait until the sky is as blood and Mainiac returns to us upon a pillar of salt.

Hopefully it shows up soon, I've always wanted to try engaging a Horseman.
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RedKing

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9378 on: November 03, 2016, 12:10:05 am »

Or until November 9, when everyone can chill the fuck out again.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9379 on: November 03, 2016, 12:10:36 am »

What's the "root problem" in this context?
In this specific context, the root of the problem is a sub-replacement birth rate in the existing citizens of the United State, going entirely from what you were saying immigration would solve. A country's obligation is first to it's existing citizens, not it's hypothetical ones from other countries in the future. The solution to the problem of an aging population isn't to just replace the young folks like cogs in a machine with people from entirely different cultures and backgrounds and hope everything keeps going fine. Hint: what is the second most popular political platform running on, and what is it bringing with it as baggage? Blaming racism for everything and doubling down on your strategies and just trying to run over anyone who disagrees hasn't worked, because that's not how democracy works, and racism has found it's place to thrive in that resentment.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9380 on: November 03, 2016, 12:11:33 am »

Hey, 2016 isn't over till it's over. November 9th might be the settling of the storm, or it might be when the hubris of man finally boils over and consumes all creation.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9381 on: November 03, 2016, 12:24:32 am »

I give it 1:2 odds that Trump sues the government after losing, 1:4 that Clinton wins conclusively and impeachment proceedings instantly begin, 1:8 that Trump wins,  and 1:20 that the same bizarre shit happening in South Korea happens to Clinton, where she turns out to have been a zombie puppet of an evil psychic sentient growth on Al Gore's back. I think combined those are some pretty good odds for 2016 having some highlights left.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9382 on: November 03, 2016, 12:27:31 am »

2016 has "amped up" over ten times by my reckoning, meaning I'm not going to let my guard down until at least two months of nothing during 2017. It's the only sensible thing.
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sluissa

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9383 on: November 03, 2016, 12:28:00 am »

I give it 1:2 odds that Trump sues the government after losing, 1:4 that Clinton wins conclusively and impeachment proceedings instantly begin, 1:8 that Trump wins,  and 1:20 that the same bizarre shit happening in South Korea happens to Clinton, where she turns out to have been a zombie puppet of an evil psychic sentient growth on Al Gore's back. I think combined those are some pretty good odds for 2016 having some highlights left.

Those are some pretty good odds for a Trump win... if I were a betting man... although I'd expect better payouts on a psychic Al Gore zombie reveal.
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Max™

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9384 on: November 03, 2016, 01:06:49 am »

For Clinton to be impeached she would need to commit and be convicted of a crime in office, or commit a certain class of federal crime prior to assuming office which wasn't discovered until literally that day.

Treason, Bribery, High Crime and Misdemeanors.

I know lots of pundits like to bluster about it because they either assume nobody knows the actual rules, or they themselves do not know them, but whether malice or ignorance, it is incorrect.
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misko27

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9385 on: November 03, 2016, 01:19:07 am »

Fun fact: this post originally had more color coding, but it turns out forum yellow is disgusting and unreadable.
The funny part about the Permanent Democratic Majority arguments that always go on is that as far as evil plans go, it's easily derailed. All the Republicans have to do is stop doing....everything Trump is doing, and the attempt to turn Mexican-Americans into the borg or whatever will fail.
Ah, but the problem is essentially that the Republican Party is two parties. The old generation was leaving. The new generation was supposed to be people like Paul Ryan: young, intellectual, upstanding conservatives with a Libertarian bent: deregulating, simplifying, etc. The new Republican was going to be a fusion of the traditional Republican base with a newfound Libertarian edge that would revitalize the party, seek to capitalize on the market share proven to exist by the Libertarian Party, and stay modern while bringing in new voters to the Grand Old Party. That was where a lot of Republican party elders assumed the party was going to go, and they made room, which is why Ryan, despite his greatest accomplishment being "was VP", is currently Speaker of the House, and has this reputation (deserved or not) as a hardcore policywonk who just reads economic textbooks for fun. The Tea Party, in its initial stages, seemed like it would be this sort of thing. Do you guys recall when people cared about the debt, half a decade ago? I did. People talked in existential terms about government spending, and that's when Sequestration got put in. Military Republicans screamed bloody murder, but the party let it happen to give the movement room. 2010 was the great Tea Party wave. Mitt Romney, as a businessman and all-around rich guy, seemed to go down this line as well, blending traditional conservatism with financial and social libertarianism into something new. It seemed like things might have gone that way.

Could they? Who knows. What matters is voters didn't buy it. The Tea Party didn't buy it. At the end of the day people really didn't care for tax cuts for the wealthy. The connection between the high-concept Paul Ryan and the image of the "cut welfare to them damn slackers" hill-billy was too distant. The Tea Party (to the extent that it still is relevant) is now more about immigration then anything else, and this has been true since the immigration deal. There was conservative passion and rage, but it wasn't the type Republican leaders were responding to. There is a reason Republicans get more traction out of attacking their leadership than Democrats (want proof? Trump won, Sanders lost), and its that there is a real gap between the heads of the party, who were trying to make room for Paul Ryan's upstanding young libertarians, and Ted Cruzans.

Trump proved something. He proved that there is a market for this sort of thing. It's not just "C+". It's qualitatively different from the direction Republican leaders were going with: instead of being the party of personal freedom, Trump's GOP was the party of powerful government. Trump was a businessman like Romney, so you would expect him to be along the same path, right? Nope. Trump gives lip service to deregulation, but I'd bet for every time he mentions cutting rules, he mentions his ability to take corrupt rich people to task using his insider knowledge at least twice. What is the "worst deal ever" according to Trump? NAFTA. Too loose. People take advantage of us. What is the logical opposite of these statements? Closed trade; regulated trade. Strength. Dealmaking. Respect. Tell me, can you imagine Trump saying "The government that governs best is the one that governs least?" Fuck no! You'd hear him call that sad! Loser talk. His GOP is strong governing. Powerful governing. Governing from the top down.

I could go on, but the point is the distance between Ryanism and Trumpism. So then what; the path forward is Trumpism right? No. That's the problem. First, party leaders don't want it. Trumpism is a real and significant break with what they envisioned. Many genuinely believe its the wrong path, or it is too great a break with Reagan and their traditions, etc. You don't get to be a party elder by being very open-minded, after all. Second: They believe it is nonviable. They believe that this new movement cannot coexist with the current coalition. Even beyond the toxicity we all know so much, it just doesn't fit.

Three: They are right. Trumpism is not big enough to be its own coalition. Neither is the rest of the party. Both blocs are large, but not large enough to operate without the other. They need each other to be viable, but they don't fit together. They fucking hate each other, and on November Ninth it will all spill out into the streets. So many people are talking about what happens if Trump refuses to concede; what if he blames his own party? I mean really think about that. Trump's followers are fanatical. If he lets them loose on his party (and that is pretty damn likely!), what damage can they do? What if the GOP responds with equal viciousness, now that Trump lacks the mandate of the Republican Nominee? Who wins? What even happens?

Trump at his best was only ever strong by taking in all of his base, plus traditional Republicans, plus the disaffected middle voter (and even with all that, its debatable whether he ever broke even with Hillary). Trump manages himself by taking his voters, plus traditional republicans who just always vote republican due to loyalty to the party, the lipservice to the Republican Nominee, etc (the traditional coalition is largely in this group: parts of the religious right, the small government groups, etc). But consider: Trump is doing poorly with the rest of his coalition even though that part of the coalition is basically defined by "being Republican". He is struggling as a republican with voters whose sole qualifier is "Republican Y/N". I'm being hyperbolic, but there is a reason: Do you think Trump's coalition would have that same sort of loyalty? Or better yet: Will they? Because it's going to happen. Four years from now, Republicans will almost certainly NOT nominate someone like Trump. The leadership will do all in their power to prevent it from coming to pass. But when a "traditional" republican takes the stage, how will Trump supporters respond? It depends on November 9th, November 10th, etc: If Trump blames his party, and if he continues attacking them, and he stays a lasting (if considerably weakened) force, then he can deal fatal damage to the party.

Will Trump lead his base away from the party? Would they follow him if he did? If the answers to both are "yes" (and there are strong reasons to believe both), then Trump can damage the party immensely. If you take away the Trump base, then the GOP is left with a completely non-viable party. What does that mean? Certainly losing the Presidency, Senate is probably, House is debatable. Either way, it'll be a bloodbath.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9386 on: November 03, 2016, 03:10:45 am »

LW can you stop with your 'Hillary Clinton assassinated Billy Mays' conspiracy theories please, they are stale pasta.
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Neonivek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9387 on: November 03, 2016, 03:30:10 am »

I do find some of the controversy against Hilary to be hilarious and often just flat out sexist :P

"Ohh man she is ambitious!"

Yes, heaven forbid she actually have a passion for politics! Quick, force her to bake cookies! (Yes, make her bake cookies is an actual criticism people put against her)

I say sexist because... I don't think I've heard of a male politician yet... whose major criticism is he is ambitious to a cartoon villain degree... THAT and as I said, people did legitimately tell her to go back to the kitchen... that is a thing that actually happened soooo...
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9388 on: November 03, 2016, 03:56:00 am »

Jesus Christ neonivek we live in such different worlds
I was raised on stories of princes, Kings and ministers whose bold ambitions brought them high whilst all down low despised them
How do you even begin to cross such a gulf of understanding

Phmcw

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American (\{mainiac})
« Reply #9389 on: November 03, 2016, 03:56:38 am »

I do find some of the controversy against Hilary to be hilarious and often just flat out sexist :P

"Ohh man she is ambitious!"

Yes, heaven forbid she actually have a passion for politics! Quick, force her to bake cookies! (Yes, make her bake cookies is an actual criticism people put against her)

I say sexist because... I don't think I've heard of a male politician yet... whose major criticism is he is ambitious to a cartoon villain degree... THAT and as I said, people did legitimately tell her to go back to the kitchen... that is a thing that actually happened soooo...


Hmmm Trump? And I don't follow American politics enough but in France, Mr "I'd do anything to win" is Manuel "El blanco" Valls.
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