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[Reelya]

Bush was also the one who pushed Fannie Mae to lower standard on loans (in 2003), while also pushing through a thing called the "American Dream Downpayment Act", which basically threw away the rules and paid out the complete downpayment for a house for people with bad credit ratings. The Bush Administration were the primary cheerleaders and enablers for sub-prime loans basically, then when the shit hit the fan they tried to blame Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, and blamed the very regulators that they had forced to give out more loans for doing exactly what they were told.

Then of course, fucking ISIS wouldn't exist if not for Bush's Iraq War, which also caused Libya, Egypt, Syria and most of the meltdowns and refugee problems we have right now. They also empowered Iran by wiping out their two major regional enemies (Taliban and Saddam), leading to pro-Iranian governments in Iraq. Good job, Mr Bush.

BTW I highly recommend this BBC doco, Daylight Robbery. It's about all the crooked contracts that went to companies with shareholders such as Vice President Dick Cheney and similar. e.g. how Dick Cheney's company basically sent truck drivers out in empty trucks on fake trips around iraq (in which many drivers were killed) so they could bill the taxpayer for non-existent loads (they forged the logs).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr9e1XT569U

[Powder Miner]

@Covenant: Oh give it a rest, you pratting twit. After all, this is the kind of stuff guys say, right? It's just Internet forum banter.

When you're talking about raising your hands to someone for holding differing views to you (or to your child for making crude jokes, for that matter), I think you've lost any 'banter' you were trying to engage in, personally. You just come off as a violent thug.

Covenant, I'll say this. I don't like the threats of violence and have said so, but what this is goes beyond crude jokes; sexual assault is not something to be proud of, and defending claims of it, even if joking, makes then complaining about the claims of wanting to violence someone, even if joking, a little bit hypocritical.

"It's the sort of thing guys do" is used to justify some genuinely horrendous horrendous things and I think it's something to always be wary of. Things ought not be downplayed by attempting to put a generalization to them.

[Folly]

It'd be really nice if we didn't try to normalize this shit when it's really not bloody normal.

It'd be nice if we could recognize that humanity is not made up entirely of asexual robots who perfectly follow acceptable protocol 24/7. There are a lot of different types of people out there, and just because you have not personally experienced cultures which acknowledge their baser nature and express themselves unabashedly, does not mean that those cultures do not exist.

[Loud Whispers]

I personally like correcting the ill behaviour of children without hospitalizing them

That's a thing we still do rite

[mainiac]

I'm gonna be dead honest, I've expressed opposition to the aca before, but whatever I actually knew about the actual workings of the bill I've since forgotten. Can someone help me out and explain what it actually consists of to me, so I'm not full of shit?

3 things:

1) Community Rating: Everyone is offered the same insurance options.  The only factors are age, location and smoking status.  This means that if you are sick and need insurance, you cant lose it or have your rates skyrocket.  It also means if you are healthy you dont get bargain basement prices (which would vanish the moment you get sick).  AKA it makes insurance act like insurance

2) Subsidies: Not everyone can afford insurance at rates that pay for the above.  Before they were getting bargain basement insurance that went away if they were sick.  Now the government subsidizes your insurance if you are poor

3) Individual mandate: Because insurance is worth more if you are sick and less if you aren't sick, the law requires everyone pay for insurance or uncle sam starts giving you fines on your income taxes to make it that you dont free ride

There is also other stuff like some IT modernization and healthcare access but that is the big stuff.

I see inthread tends to consist more of fingerpointing for disagreeing on any sort of issue hat involves race at all, Brexit being a brilliantly shining example.

But there was racism in Brexit.  Personally I dont think racism was the most important part about Brexit (the most important part being that it will lower British economic welfare long term) but Redking isn't making it up.

[Powder Miner]

It'd be really nice if we didn't try to normalize this shit when it's really not bloody normal.

It'd be nice if we could recognize that humanity is not made up entirely of asexual robots who perfectly follow acceptable protocol 24/7. There are a lot of different types of people out there, and just because you have not personally experienced cultures which acknowledge their baser nature and express themselves unabashedly, does not mean that those cultures do not exist.

But this is a false dichotomy. Not normalizing sexual assault and completely repressing sexuality are very different things. Sexual assault and bragging about it can be seen as a terrible thing without coming ANYWHERE close to seeing people as acceptable protocol robots beep boop. There is a line that sexual assault crosses that other sexuality does not, the golden line of consent.

Thank you, mainiac. Also, yes, there was racism there. But the point I wanted to make is that racism was far from the only reason why one might support it, and boiling it down to racism necessarily dismisses a lot of these. It's not that racism isn't a factor with Brexit, because it is, it's that it is very very far from the only one.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I'm gonna be dead honest, I've expressed opposition to the aca before, but whatever I actually knew about the actual workings of the bill I've since forgotten. Can someone help me out and explain what it actually consists of to me, so I'm not full of shit?

900 Pages Condensed To Half-Remembered Points On An Internet Forum Edition:

 -Insurance companies barred from denying coverage based on preexisting conditions
 -States required to expand Medicaid (later changed by SCOTUS to an option, still accepted by I think 48 of 50 excluding Best Carolina)
 -Bans "Cadillac plans" which had absurd monthly costs (delayed until 2020)
 -Individual mandate, those below poverty line exempt
 -Employer mandate, caused controversy by including contraception coverage

[Wolfhunter107]

It'd be really nice if we didn't try to normalize this shit when it's really not bloody normal.

It'd be nice if we could recognize that humanity is not made up entirely of asexual robots who perfectly follow acceptable protocol 24/7. There are a lot of different types of people out there, and just because you have not personally experienced cultures which acknowledge their baser nature and express themselves unabashedly, does not mean that those cultures do not exist.

Yeah, and guess what, none of that justifies sexual assault, because the United States is not One of those cultures, and here, that's exactly what the shit he was describing was. If you don't believe me, read the damn thing yourself; somebody else just posted it.

[RedKing]

@Covenant: Oh give it a rest, you pratting twit. After all, this is the kind of stuff guys say, right? It's just Internet forum banter.

When you're talking about raising your hands to someone for holding differing views to you (or to your child for making crude jokes, for that matter), I think you've lost any 'banter' you were trying to engage in, personally. You just come off as a violent thug.

Sorry, guess I needed to use the /s flag to make it abundantly clear. Wait here while I fetch some smelling salts, since you're obviously overcome with the vapors at the thought of fisticuffs and ungenteel behavior (that doesn't involve pussy-grabbing and forcing yourself on a woman).

@LW: Yes. Because I spank hard enough to hospitalize.
How about more post, less shit next time, m'kay?


Moving on...read an interesting short op-ed from Bill Kristol, who kinda wishes Trump had had a total meltdow last night, because he's worried that the less-horrible debate performance will give GOP pols an excuse to stick with Trump (which he argues is the path to disaster for the whole party). Also potentially widening the split among the party establishment between those who un-endorsed and those who are sticking with Trump.

[Powder Miner]

@Covenant: Oh give it a rest, you pratting twit. After all, this is the kind of stuff guys say, right? It's just Internet forum banter.

When you're talking about raising your hands to someone for holding differing views to you (or to your child for making crude jokes, for that matter), I think you've lost any 'banter' you were trying to engage in, personally. You just come off as a violent thug.

Covenant, I'll say this. I don't like the threats of violence and have said so, but what this is goes beyond crude jokes; sexual assault is not something to be proud of, and defending claims of it, even if joking, makes then complaining about the claims of wanting to violence someone, even if joking, a little bit hypocritical.

"It's the sort of thing guys do" is used to justify some genuinely horrendous horrendous things and I think it's something to always be wary of. Things ought not be downplayed by attempting to put a generalization to them.

I'll say this: at least alway has put a legitimate accusation down. That, if it were true, would of course be serious, and a big deal. And I'll look into it (though it already seems a bit odd that she'd drop her rape allegation after getting her contract dispute settled).

But that tape isn't sexual assault, or a recounting of a sexual assault. It's just douchey bragging, and seems to me at least, to clearly be so.  It's like if prosecutors were readying a rape case after Trump said he'd had an intimate encounter with Hillary's mother. Yeah, more than anything it points out that Trump is actually something of a dick... but that's about as far as it goes.

Yeah, but that pointing out that he is a bad person in that respect is NOT something that should be downplayed, because it is NOT normal. Arguments about its relevancy to politics can have more or less merit, but bragging about sexual assault, real or not, is noooot something that is normal for boys (or, in the case of Trump, grown older men) to do, and it shouldn't be treated like it is or downplayed as just being a bit of a dick.

[mainiac]

I'm gonna be dead honest, I've expressed opposition to the aca before, but whatever I actually knew about the actual workings of the bill I've since forgotten. Can someone help me out and explain what it actually consists of to me, so I'm not full of shit?

900 Pages Condensed To Half-Remembered Points On An Internet Forum Edition:

 -Insurance companies barred from denying coverage based on preexisting conditions
 -States required to expand Medicaid (later changed by SCOTUS to an option, still accepted by I think 48 of 50 excluding Best Carolina)
 -Bans "Cadillac plans" which had absurd monthly costs (delayed until 2020)
 -Individual mandate, those below poverty line exempt
 -Employer mandate, caused controversy by including contraception coverage

IIRC the Cadillac plans thing was just a tax, not a ban.

19 was the number of states that opted out: http://kff.org/health-reform/state-indicator/state-activity-around-expanding-medicaid-under-the-affordable-care-act/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

But if Democrats take the house they might fix that!

[alway]

There's a bunch of other stuff that's also big stuff to certain people they impact.
Pre-existing conditions are one; which the community rating implies, but it's always good to spell out explicitly. Which matters a heck of a lot if you were a cancer patient who needed to find a new insurance plan and just plain couldn't find one.
It lengths the time children could stay on their parents plan to age 26.
Making preventative care covered for free, thus preventing more dangerous and expensive procedures later: http://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/facts-and-features/fact-sheets/preventive-services-covered-under-aca/

http://www.hhs.gov/healthcare/facts-and-features/key-features-of-aca/

[Reelya]

The individual mandate is a good thing, because people without insurance end up in ER wards for minor treatment, costing the system and the taxpayers a lot more than they would otherwise. Sure people can whine about the costs of having to get insurance if they don't think they need it, but it's one of those false economy things, because everyone ends up paying for the uninsured.

[RedKing]

Yeah, there were a surprisingly large number of states that turned down free money from the Federal government for Medicaid expansion because it was "Obama's money".

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Hey, there's always time for a true meltdown at Debate Three once the level of pull-out (eeeeyyyyy) from Trump by the GOP becomes clear.

IIRC the Cadillac plans thing was just a tax, not a ban.

Probably functionally the same, given that they wouldn't offer Cadillac plans if they were heavily taxed.

19 was the number of states that opted out: http://kff.org/health-reform/state-indicator/state-activity-around-expanding-medicaid-under-the-affordable-care-act/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

But if Democrats take the house they might fix that!

Isn't there some other division at play here? I know I've heard more than once NC and some trash-tier waifu state were the only two to "fully refuse" or something, even further than the opt-outs.