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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1389859 times)

RedKing

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5475 on: October 02, 2016, 05:52:14 pm »

The Johnson swell will probably only happen if Trump or Clinton falls apart.
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5476 on: October 02, 2016, 05:52:57 pm »

Realpolitik. Nobody actually respects what the electors think. It was one thing when the candidates were alive and the electors differed from the popular vote. In a situation like this they'll do what Congress tells them to do or they'll be replaced with someone who will.

Congress doesn't appoint the College.  The voters do on November 8th.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5477 on: October 02, 2016, 05:56:43 pm »

Realpolitik. Nobody actually respects what the electors think. It was one thing when the candidates were alive and the electors differed from the popular vote. In a situation like this they'll do what Congress tells them to do or they'll be replaced with someone who will.

Congress doesn't appoint the College.  The voters do on November 8th.
And if the election were to get 2016'd they'd get unappointed on November 9th. If they objected to this intervention of law, I'm sure the NSA would be happy to persuade them of their horrid mistake.

Come on, dude. In a disaster scenario like this what matters is who gets the most gun on their side, and that would be Congress so long as Obama didn't decide to pull a temporary coup. Nobody actually gives a shit about the law if it's threatening the thing the people who control the law have going.
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Rolan7

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5478 on: October 02, 2016, 05:56:43 pm »

I get what you're saying about Generals, but we've had at least three Generals who got elected already, Washington, Ulysses S. Grant, and Eisenhower. Plenty of presidents had military experience of one sort or another.
I was ambiguous.  I meant the general election.

The ambiguousness was just a vague stealth pun.
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5479 on: October 02, 2016, 06:00:03 pm »

And if the election were to get 2016'd they'd get unappointed on November 9th.

The constitution is unambiguous on this dude...
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5480 on: October 02, 2016, 06:02:09 pm »

And if the election were to get 2016'd they'd get unappointed on November 9th.
The constitution is unambiguous on this dude...
Inter arma enim silent leges.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5481 on: October 02, 2016, 06:06:01 pm »

Actually, on following historical examples, the only one was in 1872 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector#1872_to_1896 and Ulysses S. Grant beat Horace Greely (the one who died) easily, so, it really didn't matter. The second sorta-one was a VP candidate.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2016, 06:09:29 pm by smjjames »
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5482 on: October 02, 2016, 06:09:15 pm »

Inter arma enim silent leges.

Okay so let's workshop this.  Paul Ryan calls up Mitch McConnell and says "hey, I think we should hold a vote to revoke elector status, something that is without the slightest shred of doubt a power endowed to the states."  Mitch McConnell replies "Sure, I would love to get laughed out of office for a half-baked anti-constitutional putsch"

What do they do next?  Hold a floor vote where they cant even make a quorum?  Kidnap John Roberts?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Rolan7

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5483 on: October 02, 2016, 06:10:56 pm »

And if the election were to get 2016'd they'd get unappointed on November 9th.
The constitution is unambiguous on this dude...
Inter arma enim silent leges.
Google Translate fails, but...
Among arms for silent law.
...
I'm guessing it means law is silent in midst of war.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5484 on: October 02, 2016, 06:11:35 pm »

Realpolitik. Nobody actually respects what the electors think. It was one thing when the candidates were alive and the electors differed from the popular vote. In a situation like this they'll do what Congress tells them to do or they'll be replaced with someone who will.

Congress doesn't appoint the College.  The voters do on November 8th.
And if the election were to get 2016'd they'd get unappointed on November 9th. If they objected to this intervention of law, I'm sure the NSA would be happy to persuade them of their horrid mistake.

Come on, dude. In a disaster scenario like this what matters is who gets the most gun on their side, and that would be Congress so long as Obama didn't decide to pull a temporary coup. Nobody actually gives a shit about the law if it's threatening the thing the people who control the law have going.
Given the way the typical American soldier, and their COs, would probably feel about someone stomping all over the constitution, I don't think a coup would be necessary. They would just tell Congress to fuck off, their Executive Officer has not given them the order to enforce this unconstitutional Mandate, Supreme Court would agree because that's their job, and Congress would then be in a whole shitton of trouble with basically everyone and everything.

People always forget that soldiers, particularly US soldiers, aren't automatons. I say particularly US soldiers because the US has had a history and a fascination/love of mavericks and defying unjust authority, as well as quite a few instances in the recent past with mlitary personnel doing quite awful things, which I think together with the esteem the Constitution is held in, would mean that no, you can't just pull a coup by giving some orders.
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5485 on: October 02, 2016, 06:14:55 pm »

Inter arma enim silent leges.

Okay so let's workshop this.  Paul Ryan calls up Mitch McConnell and says "hey, I think we should hold a vote to do something we absolutely dont have the power to do."  Mitch McConnell replies "Sure, I would love to get laughed out of office for a half-baked anti-constitutional putsch"

What do they do next?  Hold a floor vote where they cant even make a quorum?  Kidnap John Roberts?

The last time we had to do that kind of thing was back in 1824, so, one could follow history, except there's more states and a hell of a lot more reps. I could see some trying to make a break for it and vote someone not Trump OR Hillary.

In other news: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/rudy-giuliani-donald-trump-woman-229026 Giuliani hasn't reached rock bottom yet has he? And this is SO gonna get snapped up by the Democrats like so much blue meat.
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5486 on: October 02, 2016, 06:18:29 pm »

It wouldn't even be a coup.  It would just be a big anti-climatic... "uh... you can't do that."  It's like if Michael Moore tried to fired the CEO of GM.

The last time we had to do that kind of thing was back in 1824, so, one could follow history, except there's more states and a hell of a lot more reps. I could see some trying to make a break for it and vote someone not Trump OR Hillary.

Yeah there would probably be faithless electors all over the place.  Might even end up without a majority and congress choses the winner.  But I think it's likely that the Democratic electors would all hang together and vote for the same candidate.  They would have nearly two months to make up their mind, they would very likely have a majority and they would know that congress would pick a republican.  So probably someone like O'Malley, Biden or Warren.  Hopefully Biden because a near-death president seems fitting to follow a dead president elect.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5487 on: October 02, 2016, 06:25:03 pm »

Inter arma enim silent leges.

Okay so let's workshop this.  Paul Ryan calls up Mitch McConnell and says "hey, I think we should hold a vote to revoke elector status, something that is without the slightest shred of doubt a power endowed to the states."  Mitch McConnell replies "Sure, I would love to get laughed out of office for a half-baked anti-constitutional putsch"

What do they do next?  Hold a floor vote where they cant even make a quorum?  Kidnap John Roberts?
We are discussing this scenario in wake of the hypothetical of "everybody who could win the election except Jill Stein dies the day before the election", so let's keep that in mind here.

So the first words are probably, "holy shit, what the holy fucking shit" and Obama deploying the national guard to keep society from panicking into the self-destruct button.

For the sake of argument we'll just go with Jill Stein getting 270 due to being organized, with maybe a 25% voter turnout amongst all the people who get organized within the 24 hour period.

So, Paul Ryan immediately knows that everybody is thinking this election is kind of full of shit, and it's not like the Dems really want to deal with President Stein. Congress declares a special session in which the election is discarded due to extraordinary circumstances. It's more likely that another election with him and Warren or someone happens in December, but it's also not impossible that with Republican control they just vote on majority to declare Ryan the winner instead.

Most people will accept either outcome, with more bristling at the latter (which aside from discarding the election is also absolutely "constitutional"). They won't really be upset at the alleged "violation of the Constitution", which only sticklers and Stein supporters will bring up, because their gasoline will be affordable and armed gangs won't prowl the streets. The goal of the government is to reduce the price of bread, not to follow the ethereal ideals that make up their talking points. This is why Donald Trump is such an obvious disaster even if you were the type to agree with his ideals.

Human beings are not machines that follow the computer code of the law, or at least not all of us. Congress violates the Constitution every day in ways they consider acceptable. Due to the circumstances of this, "acceptable" changes pretty severely. You can't even tell me that, in more realistic terms, if Donald Trump weren't to make it to election day that the Republican Congress wouldn't try to get Hill-Dog disbarred or the election postponed. Successful or otherwise.
Given the way the typical American soldier, and their COs, would probably feel about someone stomping all over the constitution, I don't think a coup would be necessary. They would just tell Congress to fuck off, their Executive Officer has not given them the order to enforce this unconstitutional Mandate, Supreme Court would agree because that's their job, and Congress would then be in a whole shitton of trouble with basically everyone and everything.
What People Imagine Soldiers Say: No sir! Constitutional liberty!
What Soldiers Actually Say: Oh thank god, there's not going to be a civil war/societal collapse, I'm not going to die killing insurgents in my own country.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5488 on: October 02, 2016, 06:29:07 pm »

I think that Jill Stein wont even hit third place running against three corpses.  And prepared to smoothly manage a turnout operation in the middle of a crisis is like the exact opposite of Jill Stein.  I think Jill Stein wont even hit forth place because Jeff Weaver could toss together a better campaign for Bernie Sanders corpse in a day then Jill Stein could organize even if Vladimir Putin gave her months of advance warning.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #5489 on: October 02, 2016, 06:36:22 pm »

Fair enough, but if it's that much of a disaster it might as well keep going. More likely they would actually just count the electors as "Democrat and Republican" instead of by person and go from there, but if they didn't happen there's no way they'd respect the electors.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
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