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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1390245 times)

Reelya

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4695 on: September 24, 2016, 06:12:31 am »

Canada is a younger and more immigrant country. It has three parties to America's two. And the divide between blacks and whites is much bigger then the Quebec Ontario divide.

Canada has much lower numbers of people per voting district as well, meaning there's less averaging out of opinion and more fine-grained choices. Canada has 35 million people electing 338 candidates, which is very similar to the UK's scale of electorates: about 1/7th the number of voters per delegate compared to the USA. In Canada, if getting one "average" city was enough to elect a third-party candidate, then in the USA you'd presumably need to get 4+  out of 7 similar-sized cities all leaning third-party at the same time. The Canadian parties won seats in rough proportions of 4-2-1, so 1 in 7 areas were third-party. If you stack 7 of those regions together, you have a USA congressional district. You can use the binomial equation to work out the odds that the third-party has 4+/7 of the sub-regions: about 1%. So if you had a party that was equally-popular in 110000-population regions, they'd win 14% of Canadian parliament seats but only 1% of American Congressional seats.

Since I wrote the code to work out the equations, I used it to work out how many 110000-sized regions (Canada sized electorates) you'd need to have the odds of winning 1 Congressional seat in the USA. It's about 1/10. So a party that won 10% of seats in a Canada-type FPTP system would only win 1/435 Congressional districts in the USA-sized electorates (about 1/4 of a percent). e.g. the thriving third-party in Canada with their 14% of seats (44 MPs), is barely above the threshold of sub-region popularity that would have got them a single Congressman in the USA. This shows how vital electorate size is to how winner-take-all electoral systems operate: the big issue isn't FPTP itself or any special trickery by the big parties, it's just that electorates in the USA have become so huge, and this by itself disadvantages third parties in a FPTP system, just due to the maths.

Quote
The Scottish parliament is actually elected differently from the UK one, in addition to consituency seats we also have list seats, which are allocated to parties sort of proportionally, but with penalties applied to parties that won constituency seats. If Scotland had used FPTP alone it would probably be an SNP majority in the Scottish parliament, but the way the votes for the list seats work meant other parties were able to get a big chunk of the list seats despite having a minority of constituency seats.

OK, so Scotland is using a version of MMP to elect it's own parliament. Which shows the difference therefore between a proportional system and a winner-takes-all system: the winner takes all system is delivering an almost 100% landslide, vs a minority government when it's done based on proportionality. Clearly, if there was one FPTP seat per voter, things would be completely proportional, but proportionality drops off as electorates get bigger.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 08:34:52 am by Reelya »
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smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4696 on: September 24, 2016, 09:41:22 am »

Canada is a younger and more immigrant country. It has three parties to America's two. And the divide between blacks and whites is much bigger then the Quebec Ontario divide.

It became fully independent later, yes, but it's colonial period starts not all that long after the pilgrims landed.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4697 on: September 24, 2016, 06:12:40 pm »

I'm curious as to what 'more immigrant country' means, considering I don't believe Canada was renowned for an Ellis Island equivalent.

Canada is certainly smaller, and didn't serve as the prototype of modern representative democracy, but what those cause can be done (hypothetically) in America. If politicians cared to. And I do say politicians because reforming elections is something that will be put off for as long as possible by the people who are winning under the current system, for obvious reasons. Maybe they don't specifically conspire to do so, but nonetheless, it will be so. Your conscious mind is the PR segment of the brain. It's real easy for the subconscious to feed it misinformation so no one suspects self-interest is involved.

Still, I'd prefer to get rid of FPTP. Or at least gerrymandering. And restrictions on lobbying. You know what, while I'm at it, I'd also like to have a full ride scholarship for the next eight years, winning numbers to the lottery, and world peace.
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Helgoland

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4698 on: September 24, 2016, 06:23:12 pm »

You'd pass on a cure for AIDS? Have pity on those of us who'd enjoy a much looser sex culture!
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4699 on: September 24, 2016, 06:52:21 pm »

That would be bundled into world peace, methinks. Either as a requirement or a results.
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4700 on: September 24, 2016, 07:21:41 pm »

That already basically exists, if I remember right. Or is very much in development. OHSU, I believe, is where it's being made/was made.
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misko27

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4701 on: September 24, 2016, 07:28:26 pm »

You'd pass on a cure for AIDS? Have pity on those of us who'd enjoy a much looser sex culture!
Have pity on those of us who wouldn't! Plus wouldn't the threat of, you know, everything else dissuade you?
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Frumple

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4702 on: September 24, 2016, 07:32:13 pm »

... how would aids still being around benefit people who don't have a looser sex culture? I'm pretty sure it being gone would be a win for anyone that's not seriously fucked in the head, and not in a good way.

Though certainly most of the rest of it is significantly less worrisome. Beyond that, presumably after aids was fixed there'd be even more resources to point at the other stuff.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2016, 07:36:39 pm by Frumple »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4703 on: September 24, 2016, 07:46:58 pm »

I mean, the people who see it as god's wrath (14% of Americans as of last year!) probably wouldn't see it as a win, nor would bugchasers. But I guess that qualifies for the head fucked standard.

On the bright side, one could spend a while laughing at the former that mortal science is more powerful than Almighty God.
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mainiac

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4704 on: September 24, 2016, 08:54:23 pm »

Speaking of AIDS, this is an interesting summary of the Clinton's history with AIDS.  It's written by a guy who has been covering public health policy stuff since around the start of the Obama presidency.  So it's a bit long but it says what's going on rather then just an uninformed politics reporter repeating "raises questions".

http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/9/22/12893444/clinton-foundation-effectiveness
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Sheb

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4705 on: September 25, 2016, 01:39:14 am »

I got all my pension invested in condom stocks.
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Helgoland

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4706 on: September 25, 2016, 07:47:06 am »

You'd pass on a cure for AIDS? Have pity on those of us who'd enjoy a much looser sex culture!
Have pity on those of us who wouldn't! Plus wouldn't the threat of, you know, everything else dissuade you?
Roses are red, violets are blue, babies are cute, and Nietzsche had syphilis too.
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Arguably he's already a progressive, just one in the style of an enlightened Kaiser.
I'm going to do the smart thing here and disengage. This isn't a hill I paticularly care to die on.

smjjames

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4707 on: September 25, 2016, 10:39:37 am »

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/25/politics/gary-johnson-climate-change/index.html

So, apparently he was trying to be funny when he said that about the Sun engulfing (or maybe not engulfing, the exact fate is unclear) the Earth during the Red Giant phase in 5 billion years. Not sure why he would go and make a joke about it when it's a serious 'right now' issue and making a joke about it makes him sound not-serious about it.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4708 on: September 25, 2016, 10:49:20 am »

Eh, I think it's fine to make jokes about stuff. Even very serious current issues. There's times to be serious sure, but... Also time for jokes.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American
« Reply #4709 on: September 25, 2016, 10:54:36 am »

That's true, but remember rule zero: You can get away with anything if you're funny.

Problem is, Gary's jokes suck.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.
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