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[mainiac]

Let's get back to the real stove war that this thread is meant to be about:

Making fun of political candidates.

Well this one is sorta awkward now...

[nenjin]

If Trump is Zapp, then who is Kiff supposed to be?

[Powder Miner]

Spoiler: It took me a while to write this and the topic may have changed while I was doing so so spoiler? (click to show/hide)

and where there are only consequences for having an opposing viewpoint?

Because sometimes you want to accept all views and other times you want to have a limited discussion.  For instance in this particular discussion it wouldn't help the conversation very much if I started including topics about your ancestry, sexuality and sexual adequacy.  So sorry, dude, you are in a limited discussion right now!  Run away!  Run away!  Go to 4chan where you can be protected from the scourge of limitation.

I should run away from my college career to go to 4chan? Or my near-future college dorm to go to 4chan? You can employ sarcasm about the limitations on this forum all you want, but it's doubly irrelevant and your wit with this reply far exceeds your actual contribution.

When I say doubly irrelevant, I mean it as such: A. We're not in a college right now, we're on an internet forum discussion thread. I don't have to go to this forum to advance my life meaningfully, we're all here because we want to be on this particular forum, and to accept its limitations is natural. I don't live here, and it isn't my only area to discuss politics. College is different, I'll live there, and my life will revolve integrally around it -- my circle of peers and friends will develop there, and it'll be the only place irl I'll ever have much of a chance in to discuss my outlook while I'm there. Do you believe I shouldn't try?

B. As long as I'm not flaming or using racial slurs, there aren't many consequences to saying what I think here, since I'm not espousing hate, and I'm usually civil enough. But what I'm worried about is that that may not be the case at college, where there may possibly (I may just be paranoid) be actual problems caused for me, social or otherwise, if I choose to express disagreement with certain things.

C (?): Well, maybe triply. You mentioned including topics about ancestry, sexuality, sexual adequacy, etc, but that isn't what I'm talking about in the slightest. I'm talking about having a view mainly relevant to whatever discussion is at hand and expressing it. I've never brought sexuality, ancestry, or sexual adequacy, or any sort of thing like that into a conversation here, and I've never felt especially limited here in conversation, if that's what you meant by limited conversation.

To clarify, I don't have any issue with, like, the various centers they have for various minorities on campuses in the like, with that aspect of what people usually consider to be safe spaces (it's a buzzword so it gets applied to a lot of things). I might find some things related to them to be questionable at times, but it's hardly as if it affects me, and if it provides actual help to people who need it, then good.

What I have an issue with is what I see as a push to turn entire college campuses or dormitories into such areas where only a certain political leaning is really accepted, because I don't want to be restricted from having my views in the place where I will be living and learning every day, and where I'm looking forward to being able to converse with many, many people of different view points and shape myself and my views accordingly. I'm afraid of the Yale incident sort of stuff, that's what I think if when I think of the whole safe space debacle. Whether or not you think that's misplaced worry or wrong in some way or
whatever is up to you, but I'd like to at least be taken seriously, here.
B.

[RedKing]

If Trump is Zapp, then who is Kiff supposed to be?

Either Chris Christie or Mike Pence, obviously.

@Sheb: I'm always in Grumpy Grandpa mode. Despite not having grandchildren, and being unlikely to have any for at least another 10 years. If it weren't for you damn whippersnappers and your goldanged idears...

[mainiac]

Did chicago have an endemic problem of considerate, well informed people who are helpfully contributing to conversations getting ejected from safe spaces?

Followup question, did Chicago have an endemic of people who thought their own opinion was the bees knees dealing with peers who didn't agree with the glowing self assessment?

@Sheb: I'm always in Grumpy Grandpa mode. Despite not having grandchildren, and being unlikely to have any for at least another 10 years. If it weren't for you damn whippersnappers and your goldanged idears...

OMG, imagine if your grandkid and mine got married one day.

[Rolepgeek]

Depends almost entirely on your college, Powder Miner, which is in turn probably highly dependent on where you live.

If you live in a state where plenty of people from rural areas can go to college, you're probably fine.

I would recommend trying to make friends with people who don't necessarily have the same viewpoint as you, and while this is obvious, it's also difficult because we self-sort. As long as you're civil and a cool dudee, you'll probably be fine. Plenty of argument, but hopefully it can turn into discussion

I think the thing about college campuses is that young people tend to be more liberal, and young people tend to be the ones in college. Plus questions about diversity and the nature of affirmative action programs means more people who are on the left will get in. Which is sortof a bad thing, but only if it's handled badly? Which is really dependent on the college?

@mainiac: What's this about endemic? Why does it need to be endemic? Why can't it just be an issue that has happened and we do not want to become endemic?

[mainiac]

@mainiac: What's this about endemic? Why does it need to be endemic? Why can't it just be an issue that has happened and we do not want to become endemic?

Because it's a bad idea to take rights away from a lot of people to "fix" negligible problems? I was exaggerating for comedic effect of course but his hypothetical sounds very silly to me.  Have you ever told someone who was very polite and well informed about a topic to butt out of a conversation?

[Powder Miner]

Did chicago have an endemic problem of considerate, well informed people who are helpfully contributing to conversations getting ejected from safe spaces?

Followup question, did Chicago have an endemic of people who thought their own opinion was the bees knees dealing with peers who didn't agree with the glowing self assessment?

I actually couldn't tell you, I don't know much of anything about UChicago's situation in particular, but the former actually has been a problem in other universities (I keep harping on about Yale, and there was that one "white tears" incident a while back). It's not as rhetorical a question as you might think.

(And I do regularly make friends with people whose viewpoints differ from mine, I made a point of it in high school).

[mainiac]

(I keep harping on about Yale, and there was that one "white tears" incident a while back). It's not as rhetorical a question as you mught think.

So I googled "yale white tears" and I immediately got this: https://medium.com/@aaronzlewis/what-s-really-going-on-at-yale-6bdbbeeb57a6#.a8485qdom

Which says that in fact the people insisting they were doing nothing wrong were in fact just deflecting from the actual grievances.  Which links back nicely to a question I had:

Followup question, did Chicago have an endemic of people who thought their own opinion was the bees knees dealing with peers who didn't agree with the glowing self assessment?

It also reminds me of an amusing thing I once read: Despite their modern reputation, the original Luddites were neither opposed to technology nor inept at using it. Many were highly skilled machine operators.

What does this have to do with safe spaces?  Well it shows us that misunderstanding what movements is about goes back a long, long time...

[Max™]

This conversation has been with us since prehistory and will be with us until we are living a united federation of planets utopia.  People think about things.  That means new words and new ideas or new meanings for old ones.  And anything new will piss off someone.

The Federation was lots of things, utopia it ain't.

So I wound up on a wikiwalk the other day and was going through and chuckling at people talking now about how great Washington was, and how they were doing the same stuff back then, except once he turned down a third term they were like "man, George is wise as shit, you know that one thing he said about political parties?" and they nod because they were like, there, and heard him talking about it, and then they're like "we should totally carry on doing what he was doing, but I disagree with how those guys want to do it... we should form a group of like-minded politicians and try to make sure they wind up becoming president", and then the other guys said the same thing?

Never mind the tumbler meme version of him hearing about how things are now, I like to think this was painted right after he heard about them doing this.

'Goddammit Tom, Alex, what did I just say?'
*both simultaneously* "HE STARTED IT! NO I DIDN'T, HE DID!"
'No, I started it, and I'm going to end it if you both don't settle down right this instant!'

[mainiac]

The Federation was lots of things, utopia it ain't.

Within the context of equitable treatment it is.

[Frumple]

Have you ever told someone who was very polite and well informed about a topic to butt out of a conversation?

I have! Though I guess the polite is questionable. Sometimes even if they're polite and well informed it's not a conversation they're a part of, even if they're polite about the intrusion. It generally doesn't exactly happen much (to massively understate the extent it doesn't), though, no.

What I have an issue with is what I see as a push to turn entire college campuses or dormitories into such areas where only a certain political leaning is really accepted, because I don't want to be restricted from having my views in the place where I will be living and learning every day, and where I'm looking forward to being able to converse with many, many people of different view points and shape myself and my views accordingly. I'm afraid of the Yale incident sort of stuff, that's what I think if when I think of the whole safe space debacle. Whether or not you think that's misplaced worry or wrong in some way or
whatever is up to you, but I'd like to at least be taken seriously, here.

All I can really say is to reassure you you're almost certainly worried over a problem that's not going to actually exist, at the very least to an extent that's going to have any particularly lasting effect. There actually are a lot of campuses out there where idealogical leanings are pretty restricted, and there have been for decades, but you're probably not going into one if you're worried about what you're worried about.

To add to that, even if you do have that sort of problem, you're still pretty ruddy likely to be alright. You'll find people that share similar views, or at least accept your expression of different ones, even if you occasionally have to sit down and shut up (like, y'know, folks on the other side of the political divide largely have to bloody constantly on conservative campuses, and have for longer than either of us have been alive), and do the work to get your education instead of mingle. As someone that's lived on and gone to campuses where expressing certain ideological points to a particularly wide audience was an incredibly bad idea, and not just in the "oh you might lose job opportunities or maybe be kicked off campus" sense, you'll still be able to have the whole college experience and get what you're actually there for (that diploma, and maybe some networking) even if there's some subjects you keep your mouth shut on. Above and beyond everything else, most of your discussion with other students is going to be on subjects where political leaning probably doesn't have much application (because you'll have textbooks and assignments, and they'll have answers that aren't up for much debate) -- there's going to be a lot to talk about even if politics or religion or whatever is off the board.

As for the rhetorical question... it sorta' isn't, I guess, but the problem you're running into is scale. It's something that's happening to some degree on some campuses, but for most, you don't have a problem, and on top of that most where you would, the problem is not something someone expressing conservative viewpoints would have. You could still theoretically hit the bad luck lottery, but it's... seriously not likely.

[Strife26]

Just because sticking one's head down and surviving college to a degree is possible does not mean it's a good, moral, or effective environment.

[Powder Miner]

I was actually talking about two seoarate incudents there, the white tears thing I was thinking about wasn't at Yale, but what you linked there DOES discuss what I do mean when I go on and on about Yale, so it's important and I will address it.

The problem with it is, I wasn't talking about the student rallies -- I wasn't trying to deflect from the grievances of that rally, I wasn't speaking about it at all. I'm referring to the fact that after that email was sent, she and her husband were harassed -- when her husband agreed to listen to the students, they tried to force him to apologize and yelled at him, trying to get him to quit, etc. The two were pretty much run out from the dorms.

I don't have an issue with their rallies, and having their open forums postponed due to threats is terrible. I do have an issue wuth that specific incident, and ironically by trying to bring it over whatever protests there were in a similar timespan there, you are deflecting from the original grievances people had with that specific incident. As far as I can tell, the two things (the people yelling at the professor and the protests that blog post is talking about) are separate if perhaps related incidents. Two facets, perhaps, of the same issue -- but it's not like there is any sort of pure, unified viewpoint on the issue. Do you believe that everyone involved in the movement believes the same thing and acts on the same principles? Is it not possible that some people just want to be able to talk about their issues without being threatened out of it or marginalized (I fully support this) and that some people want other people not to be able to question their viewpoints and would orefer those who do be ejected?

And, yeah, Frumple, that's reasonable enough, I did take that into account when choosing colleges, and I think I have agitated myself into being much more paranoid about it in this discussion than I am in reality. I certainly won't dismiss out of hand that people probably have that issue but flipped in more conservative campuses. I think that that happens is terrible for a lot of the same reasons I've had for what I've been yammering about so far. One shouldn't have to just keep their mouths shut on largely liberal or largely conservative campuses.

I guess it really does entirely depend on what one means by safe spaces -- like I said earlier this post, there's not any sort of pure, unified definition here.

[Frumple]

Just because sticking one's head down and surviving college to a degree is possible does not mean it's a good, moral, or effective environment.

Doesn't mean it isn't on one or all fronts, however. You don't really have to keep your head down, though, just make sure you pop it up at the right times. Which is, y'know. Fairly normal for social interaction. And if y'don't really have a choice y'don't really have a choice.

Mostly just saying that it's not really that terrible even if you do have to manage your ideological expression. Definitely not good, and sure it'd be better if there was no conflict over ideological differences, but you can still get everything you should be after without much substantial problem.