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[Frumple]

... if that's all you're seeing on the ground level, you are willfully ignoring the ground level. There's not really a different way of putting it.

[mainiac]

I used this site for how much crime there was in a country.

This section is based on surveys from visitors of this website

It was literally in response to you guys, on this thread.

Hey dude, do me a favor.  Where did we post "lets hate cops" in this thread?  I can't find that post.

[Rolepgeek]

I don't think I am, Frumple. By and large, I do not see people who have a real support of the police. I'd like to support them, and I think they're mostly good guys, but I think that there's some serious issues, too. Mind you, this is recently, and it's not a topic I see brought up all that often irl.

I used this site for how much crime there was in a country.

This section is based on surveys from visitors of this website

Yeah, I saw it. Combined with factually higher homicide rate in America, it seems like it works well enough. Do you have a contradictory data source you consider more reliable, on crime rates in America as a whole? I'd be glad to use one. I used that because I couldn't find much if anything about total crime rates that was reliable; one site had Iceland as the highest crimes per capita and noted that reported crime rate had more to do with effective/respected law enforcement and reporting standards, than actual crime rate.

[mainiac]

Yeah, I saw it. Combined with factually higher homicide rate in America, it seems like it works well enough. Do you have a contradictory data source you consider more reliable, on crime rates in America as a whole? I'd be glad to use one. I used that because I couldn't find much if anything about total crime rates that was reliable; one site had Iceland as the highest crimes per capita and noted that reported crime rate had more to do with effective/respected law enforcement and reporting standards, than actual crime rate.

Lack of availability of good data doesn't make shit data better.

[Kot]

Maybe it's farmers or other rural people with shotguns and/or varmint rifles. Animals like chickens are practically begging to be killed by a fox or a raccoon or whatever the local equivalent might be, and there must be some civilian hunting going on.

>shotguns
>varmint rifles
>POLAND
No.
It doesn't happen (It did, but then Soviets arrived and took all the guns and then nobody bothered to change the law).

Even if it does it's illegal and your local police can put you in jail for long time due to that. The closest you could get would be proably an air gun.
As for civilian hunting, well, yes and no. There are hunters not belonging to Forest Guard per se, but they're still treated more as government workers since you have to be part of Polish Hunter Association which assigns hunters jobs (like shooting off some boars if local farmes start complaining that they're fucking with potatoes) and has stuff like specialized courts which can also send you to jail... and then there is like 120,000 people in it, tops.
One simply does not own a gun as civilian in Poland... unless you're rich as fuck so you can bribe your way to one or... settle for pre-1850 black powder gun with separate loading ammunition.

[Rolepgeek]

Yeah, I saw it. Combined with factually higher homicide rate in America, it seems like it works well enough. Do you have a contradictory data source you consider more reliable, on crime rates in America as a whole? I'd be glad to use one. I used that because I couldn't find much if anything about total crime rates that was reliable; one site had Iceland as the highest crimes per capita and noted that reported crime rate had more to do with effective/respected law enforcement and reporting standards, than actual crime rate.

Lack of availability of good data doesn't make shit data better.

No, but it's what we got. And it mostly lines up with homicide rate, as far as I could tell. It's circumstantial evidence, so to speak. And with homicide rate also being higher, there ya go.

As for it seeming like there was a hate of police,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If there's anything that this problem is very clearly not, it's "too little sympathy for the plight of the poor killer cops". That they have so much fucking sympathy is a source of the problem. The presumption and bias in their favor, legally and socially, is a large part of why they can get away with it. Even be cheered on for it.

If your only concern is whether or not they're a criminal then yes, in today's climate, you are essentially advocating summary execution. Resisting arrest isn't grounds for dying. Being a thief isn't grounds for getting shot in the back. Police and their supporters seem to have forgotten that, because all they see is dead cops and give police the license do whatever because of it. Not all criminals are an immediate threat to society, and not every policing encounter with a criminal needs to involve a gun.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting or reading too much into it. But that plus the general attitude/tone when talking about police gave me the impression that people really disliked law enforcement personnel.

[mainiac]

No, but it's what we got.

Then your conclusion should be that you are incapable of making a judgement with the data you found.

[Orange Wizard]

I'll rephrase -- what worked for Switzerland probably wouldn't work for us.

Why not?

[Rolan7]

No, but it's what we got.

Then your conclusion should be that you are incapable of making a judgement with the data you found.

People seem quite happy to leap to other judgements in this matter.  Is it wrong to argue a position without rock-solid evidence?  I mean, sociology and political science may not be hard, but they aren't MF magnets

Just seems like a bit of a double standard, asking your "opponent" to be absolutely sure before judging.  Not that we should consider such discussions antagonistic...  There are many contributing factors, what we really disagree about is the ratio of their importance.

[Rolepgeek]

No, but it's what we got.

That is a very dangerous way to think about data.

Why?

Until you have better data, you use the data you have. You don't just throw your hands up in the air and say 'it's a mystery! we'll never know, so we may as well assume it's some other thing unrelated to the data!' Poor data > No data. You want to get the best data you can. Don't run off a cliff with it, but when it lines up with similar, more reliable data, and you don't have anything else, there ya go.

We could always not use it. And then there's no data to support for or against the idea that America has higher crime rates. You claimed it was special pleading to do so. I'm not certain how, at this point. It actually seems like it would be to not use the data. I'm not ignoring other data. I asked specifically for it, and would love to have it and use it instead. I don't know where it happens to be. And judging from logical reasoning, the USA having a higher crime rate is not an unexpected outcome. More ethnic diversity leads to more strife between ethnic groups. Cycles of poverty and crime start up where there's enough localized inequality and absence of economic opportunity. A history of racism that results in law enforcement being a threat as much or more than it is a security to minority populations, which creates systemic distrust and rejection of the existing system. Glorification of individualized violence causing rash decision-making to leap to that as one of the first answers at hand when being impulsive. A massive prison system working to keep as many people criminals as possible, and incubating rather than rehabilitating inmates.

What more do you need, mainiac?

[Powder Miner]

I'll rephrase -- what worked for Switzerland probably wouldn't work for us.

Why not?

I made an attempt at laying it out two posts before that one -- gun crime in Switzerland wasn't characterized by gangs shooting people up with illegal guns, but it sure as hell is here. Ot's what makes up the vast majority of gun crime. If you're trying to focus on countering, like, 2nd Amendment rural folk or just legal gun buyers in general like the Switzerland sort of thing would accomplish, you're doing it wrong.

[Frumple]

I don't think I am, Frumple. By and large, I do not see people who have a real support of the police. I'd like to support them, and I think they're mostly good guys, but I think that there's some serious issues, too. Mind you, this is recently, and it's not a topic I see brought up all that often irl.

Mate, if you don't see real support of the police, you have not watched TV once in the last three decades. Or read the news, or listened to the radio, or been somewhere besides under a rock. They are supported to the point that people, millions of them, try to blow off some sketchy as hell shit. To the point they functionally don't see legal repercussions, that they get sodding millions in grassroots donations, and more, and more, and more. This has been constant for the extent of my life. It is still constant, for all some people are starting to get slightly pissed that support is being taken advantage of, and even among them the majority message is "reign in" not "hate".

You practically have to be trying to miss this stuff.

And yeah, you were misinterpreting like the buggery with what you quoted. MSH was the only one that came even close to anything approaching hate, and even that was in relation to a believed excess of support. And MSH basically does hate the police.

Folks don't dislike the police, by and large. They hate it's reached the point they have solid ground to be fucking terrified of them, and everything related to that. Cops get a shitton of respect even with that, and there's friggin' piles of folks that have basically zero concern over how cops have been acting for the last long while. There's already been examples of that in this particular discussion, too.

[mainiac]

Until you have better data, you use the data you have.

Only to the extent you can use it.  Look dude, you need to stop with the strawman arguments already.  Just because someone says that we are too quick to trust the cops doesn't mean they say we should hate them.  Just because someone tells you your data is shit doesn't mean they hate the concept of data.  Stop making bullshit false dichotomies.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

And yeah, you were misinterpreting like the buggery with what you quoted. MSH was the only one that came even close to anything approaching hate, and even that was in relation to a believed excess of support. And MSH basically does hate the police.

Without a moment's hesitation.

You'd have to be crazy to find this status quo anything even in sight of acceptably bad. Going around sucking off the egos of our great "law enforcement officers" is a terrible thing to do in the face of things like the blue line of silence.

The cops don't need sympathy, they need to be put in their place. Our idealization of them is why this was allowed to degenerate to this point, regardless of the training and legal issues that enable the actual murder and injustice.

[Powder Miner]

In which way do you propose they be put into their place?