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Author Topic: Doc Helgoland's Asylum for the Politically American: T+0  (Read 1423376 times)

Reelya

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #900 on: July 22, 2016, 02:50:48 pm »
Quote from: Crashmaster on July 22, 2016, 02:43:58 pm
Quote from: Reelya on July 22, 2016, 02:27:04 pm
"Negative votes" as stated would not prevent the Spoiler Effect. e.g. if a centre-right voter negative-voted a far-right candidate, that's one more vote, effectively, for the left side of things, and vice versa. Additionally, if you positive-vote your side, your side is up one vote, but if you negative-vote your side, you're down one vote. Which is a net difference of two votes, not one. So you're actually harming your side by even turning up. This really does nothing to help third parties grow.

While I'm not trying to promote anything, I find this quote illogical; If the far-right offends the center-right enough to 'negative vote' them I would expect that to drive them to straight-up vote left or not at all given no other choices. If you negative vote your own side, it is not your side and therefore you are not loosing a vote.

But ... then you don't need the negative votes at all if there are only two candidates. Just vote for the other guy: same result except simpler.

My example assumed there were three parties running (far right, center right, and leftist), because your entire rationale for needing "negative votes" was to foster additional moderate parties. To foster additional parties, there need to be additional parties on the ballot. Otherwise the thought experiment is a waste of time.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 02:55:53 pm by Reelya »
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Crashmaster

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #901 on: July 22, 2016, 02:54:39 pm »
Not implying only two candidates. I don't understand the logic when applied to three candidates :(

If there was a center-right alternative, why would right-leaning voters negative vote the far right?

It would make sense for a undecided-center-left voter to down-vote the far-right since they are then effectively voting for whichever left candidate is leading. 1 : 1 : 1 goes to 2 : 1 : 1, 1 : 2 : 1 or 1 : 1 : 0

It would really break down with four choices though I see.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 03:06:17 pm by Crashmaster »
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Reelya

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #902 on: July 22, 2016, 02:58:21 pm »
If you negative vote on the right, you are effectively voting for the leftist candidate, and might as well just have voted for them all along.

e.g. say you negative vote the far-right person instead of voting for the centre-right person you actually want. What have you achieved? The centre-right guy is one vote better off vs the far-right guy whichever way you do it. You haven't changed the proportion of votes on the right whatsoever. you've just ensured your favored guy is one vote worse off vs the leftist, who you didn't want either.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 03:13:52 pm by Reelya »
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Crashmaster

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #903 on: July 22, 2016, 03:09:41 pm »
Quote from: Reelya on July 22, 2016, 02:58:21 pm
e.g. say you negative vote the far-right person instead of voting for the centre-right person you actually want.


Why would anyone do that?

Quote from: Reelya on July 22, 2016, 02:58:21 pm
Basically it's a dumb idea you haven't thought through at all.

I disagree.

added;

The center is not static. Extremism drives it one way and then the other.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 03:12:49 pm by Crashmaster »
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Reelya

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #904 on: July 22, 2016, 03:13:28 pm »
You haven't explained any actual benefits negative voting would bring. What's it for then?

If you disagree, you should be able to explain a scenario in which it would make sense to negative vote rather than just voting normally.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 03:19:10 pm by Reelya »
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Crashmaster

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #905 on: July 22, 2016, 03:16:16 pm »
Quote from: Crashmaster on July 22, 2016, 02:54:39 pm

It would make sense for a undecided-center-left voter to down-vote the far-right since they are then effectively voting for whichever left candidate is leading. 1 : 1 : 1 goes to 2 : 1 : 1, 1 : 2 : 1 or 1 : 1 : 0

It would really break down with four choices though I see.

Was edited in to try expand on explanation.
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Wolfhunter107

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #906 on: July 22, 2016, 03:17:44 pm »
Quote from: Crashmaster on July 22, 2016, 02:54:39 pm
Not implying only two candidates. I don't understand the logic when applied to three candidates :(

If there was a center-right alternative, why would right-leaning voters negative vote the far right?

It would make sense for a undecided-center-left voter to down-vote the far-right since they are then effectively voting for whichever left candidate is leading. 1 : 1 : 1 goes to 2 : 1 : 1, 1 : 2 : 1 or 1 : 1 : 0

It would really break down with four choices though I see.
Wouldn't that also be effectively voting for the center right candidate as well?
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Crashmaster

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #907 on: July 22, 2016, 03:19:18 pm »
Quote from: Crashmaster on July 22, 2016, 02:54:39 pm
It would really break down with four choices though I see.

I'm obviously terrible at leaving out specifics though there are only three elements in the example ratios.

In the undecided-center-left voter example they are choosing between, far-left, center-left and far(or whatever) right.

I tried to mirror-switch point-of-view to avoid being seen as having a right-left opinion without stating the situation is mirrored as well. Sorry.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 03:31:10 pm by Crashmaster »
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Reelya

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #908 on: July 22, 2016, 03:24:00 pm »
The flaw with the proposal is that it's only helpful in extremely specific circumstances.

IRV voting or similar are much more robust in dealing with these situations.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 03:26:27 pm by Reelya »
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Baffler

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #909 on: July 22, 2016, 03:41:54 pm »
So wikileaks released a bunch of DNC materials. The vast majority of it is just mundane shit but there are a few that are garnering some interest.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The complete database. I don't doubt you'd find similar things in the RNC's internal systems, but there's plenty of underhandedness to be found.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 03:43:37 pm by Baffler »
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Quote from: Helgoland
Even if you found a suitable opening, I doubt it would prove all too satisfying. And it might leave some nasty wounds, depending on the moral high ground's geology.
Location subject to periodic change.
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mainiac

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #910 on: July 22, 2016, 03:49:08 pm »
So in other words, we learned a bunch of stuff that is public information, often the subject of news stories.  But because it's a LEAK OMG we finally have PROOF that THE ESTABLISHMENT GUYS.

I mean a joke craigslist ad?  What, was this a secret craigslist ad?  The DNC used crowds on demand?  You mean the service that is the subject of books and documentaries and whose founder was on NPR doing interviews?  Oh but the internet is beating the mainstream media guys!  Media collusion?  I am shocked, shocked! to learn that the Democratic National Committee was trying to put a pro-democratic spin on news stories.  Do they have no independence as journalists?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2016, 03:51:59 pm by mainiac »
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Quote from: misko27 on October 20, 2016, 10:52:51 pm
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Crashmaster

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #911 on: July 22, 2016, 03:51:05 pm »
Quote from: Reelya on July 22, 2016, 03:24:00 pm
The flaw with the proposal is that it's only helpful in extremely specific circumstances.

IRV voting or similar are much more robust in dealing with these situations.

True.

My thought was more to the effect of it being a small and simple enough change that it stood a chance of actually being implemented and making a whatever tiny difference as opposed the poor possibility of success at to trying to promote changing the core system to the people in power that it currently benefits.
Nothing great just a little step. People have said the two-party system is no good previously but no changes are made.
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smjjames

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #912 on: July 22, 2016, 03:54:34 pm »
Looks like politics as usual really...
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #913 on: July 22, 2016, 03:58:15 pm »
Quote from: Baffler on July 22, 2016, 03:41:54 pm
So wikileaks released a bunch of DNC materials. The vast majority of it is just mundane shit but there are a few that are garnering some interest.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The complete database. I don't doubt you'd find similar things in the RNC's internal systems, but there's plenty of underhandedness to be found.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Subject: RE: No shit

My sides
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smjjames

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Re: Ameripol\{RK, mainiac}
« Reply #914 on: July 22, 2016, 04:03:13 pm »
Trying to clear up confusion whether he might be an atheist or not being clear on that seems legit to me.

Besides, you guys DO know how religious parts of our country are. It may not be a big deal in England or France or whatever, but to some people, it is a big deal. Not one of those people btw.
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